Help! - Childminding Issue - Child Withheld

[shakeyjakey]

I'm one of mumsnet's fathers. I have a near 10yr old boy (Jan 13) and have been separated/divorced for 8 years, having had my son for approx 140 overnights/annum in that time. I have a great relationship with my son.

Three weeks ago I left my son in the care of my best friends 15yr old son and their daughter of 10yrs while we parents went out for dinner.

As background, the 15yr old has been known to my son since he was born, a cousin really, we see their family often and he also came on holiday with us earlier this year for a week at a holiday park. He has completed his Duke of Edinburgh Bronze Award and regularly gets a train by himself into the nearest major city and then out to his aunties, where he stays overnight in order to attend a club he goes to the following morning, all on his own. the distance between these houses would be in the order of 40 miles. My ex-wife, the mother of my son knows this boy but has rarely (perhaps only once) seen him over the past 8 years. She would have considered herself close with his mother in the past.

Since my childminding actions my ex has been to the police, engaged social services, withheld my son from me (I don't have a court order for custody - yet) and had a lawyer write to me. I have followed up on the police and social services and clearly legally have done nothing wrong. My ex continues to withhold and appears to be seeking some confirmation of irresponsibility from both me and the sitter's mother as well as a promise it won't be repeated and then she 'might' reconsider re-instating my time with my son.

Clearly I'm seeking legal recourse. I'm interested in others comments on my actions as well as the actions of my son's mother. We adults were out from 19:00 to 23:30. The young ones were in bed by 22:00. A next door neighbour was alerted and was available if required but please don't consider this in any answer as my ex-wife hasn't because she hasn't sought any detail.......

I think it's fine to leave two ten year olds in the care of a responsible 15 year old, with a neighbour on standby. I can imagine some 15 year olds are not responsible but some definitely are.

When I was eleven I was walking 15 minutes to the train station, getting the train into the city then the bus out again to school.

Do you think your ex thinks that you (complicated!) should be spending your time with your son with him?

I had a regular babysitting gig at 15, looking after the children of a GP and lawyer one evening a week. The children were much younger.

Could your DS have complained to ex about something that happened?

I remember checking NSPCC guidelines when looking for a babysitt and they do recommend to have slightly older babysitter as their reasoning is that the under 16 will cope very well in normal circ vut not in case of emergency. Is it their argument?

Or as said unthread, is the issue that custody is about you seeing your kids and if you are not seeing them, they should be with the other parent?

Good luck.

Hi SavoyCabbage
I see my son every other weekend, every Wed night and half his holidays, which is much more than i get, and much of that 8 years I was on my own. She may wish that I spent the time with my son, however I want to offer my son a 'normal' life when he is with me and this was not a 'normal' occurance. He enjoyed the freedom of not having an 'adult' around. I feel very, very responsible for my relationship with my son, always have.
My ex is coined as 'Mrs Makewrong' by my circle and this is the second period this calendar year she has determined to with-hold, the first was because I wanted to change the weekend schedule to accommodate my fathers 80th birthday party.
Do you think she is justified in going to the police and social services because I wasn't spending time with him that night?

You are probably best placed to judge whether your ex genuinely fears for your DS safety in your care, or whether she has other issues with contact and you effectively handed her a loaded gun for her to shoot you with.

Is your ex generally protective of your DS? Has she used informal childcare herself? Or, is it the relationship with the other family that the issue? Would she have reacted the same way if it had been a different 15 year old babysitter?

The fact the SS and the police are involved indicates how strongly your ex feels about this - I imagine that mediation will be the first step but court sounds like the most likely outcome, I'm afraid

At age 11 I was bringing my younger brother and sister home from primary school, feeding them at lunchtime and getting them back again. When I was 14 and they were 11, I still had to stay and look after them.......how cruel!!
Different back then......?
My son's mother at 11 was the eldest of 4 when her mother and father broke up. I wonder what similar stories she may have.....but that may be different as perhaps no-one is as responsible as she ........

God no, I don't think she's justified in going to the police out of pique. I'm wondering if she is genuinely worried about your son while he is in your care, or if she's using it as an excuse.

It sounds like you know it's an excuse!

Mediation would be good.....something I have been encouraging for over 12 months now, since the start of the earlier calendar issue.

I nearly got there but over the last 6 weeks my ex has cancelled mediation twice on me, laterally after the sitting issue. I hold out that she always was going to, she just needed an excuse.

The police think she is time waster, using them to try to 'enforce her opinion' only. They came to see me only because she pressed them to speak to me and when they did speak to me they were apologetic.....
Social Services don't discuss things but I do know she threatened she had been in touch and when I called, she hadn't.......that's perhaps lying, except in her book?

It may be concern Savoy, sure she is concerned......
but, her concern is not analytically justified.
She is a worried and protective mother (my opinion) and appears to operate to make me wrong.......as I have spent 8 years being attacked and seeking evidence to protect myself.
I am so much for an easy life and for us as parents to discuss parenting my son rather than fighting etc.
My mother dropped an easter egg off at her house when she was last withholding, there were two younger kids, 8 and 6 in the house playing and she was in bed sleeping upstairs. I'm not judging her in that.....but, the other way around the police may well have been called......

Court is the answer DisneyMum.
I would rather soft and cuddly mediation but the hammer of the law is imminent.....

Hi FrequentFlyer,
I understand that with court custody the issue of being there in the time has more relevance, like a swing-park swing pusher.
To date this has not been my life, the separation agreement and general discussion has worked well, albeit occasionally strained and this has allowed the flexibility of occasional time with his grandparents etc (which in law would need to seek their own custody.....how sad!!).
I prefer our time to be more 'normal', and not being with him may happen 3-4 nights out of 150 annually, it's not a normal occurance as I have every other weekend to make non-child arrangements.
So sad to be have to be seen as a swing-park swing pusher.......

Agreed Whistling, thanks.

I also had a regular babysitting job at 15 and had babysat before this for younger dc.

My dd1 did a babysitting course at our local college when she was aged 14, so I would have thought if they take 14 years olds on the course the college (which has every adult crb checked) is looking at these young people actually babysitting and being part of the local authority wouldn't ss have soemthing to say about it if it wasn't ok?

I think you need to hold onto the reason why you are doing this - otherwise it is going to come across as "one parent against the other" in court.

Rather than argue with her, my DP accepted all of his exW unreasonable assertions, seeking support from professionals (school, family support workers, SS, CAFACASS etc) throughout the process - emphasis that he "fully understood" his exW concerns/position and that he would like help supporting the DC's to come to terms with the situation she had created.

When DP's ex withheld the DC's from contact with him, he made an appointment at the school to let them know what was going on, and asked for their advise as to how he could best keep in touch with his DCs until he could see them again. He never once criticised his ex for withholding them. The school emphasised the need for DPto see a solicitor (he already had) and they also spoke to his ex about her decision and the impact on the DC's.

When contact was re-established, but exW caused a scene, crying and wailing every time he picked the DC's up, he never once said to anyone that he thought that she was wrong to do that. He expressed sympathy for her feelings, as he knew how difficult it was to be apart from his DC's.
What he did was seek professional support (again through school) to help the DC's deal with their Mums distress. Of course, it was the professionals who then made it clear that his ex needed to "get a grip" and not let the DC's see how upset she was.
My DP's ex refused/avoided mediation as well (to the point that she coached the DC's to fake illness in order to cancel the appointment) - but he never criticised her for it, and he explained to the agencies involved when asked that although he has requested mediation - she just wasn't ready for that yet.

If you can maintain a reasonable, balanced, child-focused position as you go through the court process it is far more likely that the agencies will engage with you - whereas if you criticise your ex, it is possible that you will be seen as the bad guy.

Thanks NotaDisneyMun
Very enlightening, your DP (Divorced Partner?) is a Saint.
Could I emulate?
DC (D Children?)

DP - dear partner
DC's (dear child/ren)

Hi Katy44
Agreed, when I called SS they clarified it was no issue.
Ex got the following from a Police Sgt, which she now substitutes for my situation:
If a call was made during the sitting stating that minors were at risk the police would have attended, removed the children into care and a court judge would have then decided the maturity of the 15yr old and both I and the sitters mum could have been charged......this is how I'm viewed.......
Now, if a complaint is made, the police have to investigate and in investigating would have found what was there, not what is in my ex-wife's head......

Yes, Notadisneymum is making a good point. DONT criticism your ex openly. Let professionals do that, and you will be much closer to a resolution that is in your favour.

I dont think you did anything wrong with the babysitting.

When I was 14 I babysat a 6 and a 4 year old a whole NIGHT while the parents were out getting totally plastered.

I was considering asking a 15 year old daughter of my friend to babysit my boys.
But she's just had her own baby so is a bit busy :)

An interesting take on things FestiveWench

You can of course have a baby at 15 year old and look after the baby, the only illegal part was the sex.

Up until 1929 the legal age for marriage in England and Wales was 12 years old for a female and 14 years old for a male ( the ages were changed to reflect sexual equality). It does seem a tad strange that in less than 80 years we are saying 15 years old is to young to look after a child