Please help with evenings, getting it wrong every bloody day

[pennyhill]

I pick up my two boys (3 and 7) every day around 4pm; if it's sunny we go to the park, otherwise we come home. 3yo is not napping at lunchtime so at 4 is already tired and grumpy.

I try to organise myself during the day so that supper's pretty much prepared (ie so I don't have to spend much time in the kitchen) and we (dh still at work) can eat around 5.30/6, but basically, the second I leave them alone they fight and bicker, telling each other who's the biggest and the best, who's got the best toys, who can run faster etc. etc. 3yo always ends up in tears.

At supper, 7yo is constantly up and down from the table, despite repeated warnings/telling offs, and STILL telling 3yo he's better than him, has got the better fork or whatever nonsense he can think of. 3yo whinging, crying, me telling them both off, appealing for calm and civilised behaviour etc.

It's the same EVERY night. When I try and get some sort of project going, they're fine as long as I'm in the room with them: as soon as I go out, they're fighting again. 7yo has to be told everything 10 times before he does it (ie ok, go and brush your teeth now) which drives me insane; he just ignores me. This is something we've been actively working on - collecting points for responding first time - and he was doing well, and does it occasionally, but in the main, he just ignores me, or starts arguing with me.

I feel like I've been banging on about kindness and respect for the last God knows how many years and I might as well have been banging my head against a wall. And I end up raising my voice and getting pissed off. A couple of times my 7yo has said he's glad he'll never be a mother as it's such hard work having to tell children off all the time - which obviously makes me feel awful, as from his perspective that's all I do! (I reassure him that even though I might not like their behaviour sometimes, I love them - and being a mum - beyond all measure, but obviously he just sees me as shouty mum).

They are both good, sweet boys, very popular at school/nursery; 7yo is actually sensitive and thoughtful and very kind to others (even his brother when we're out and about).

I feel like I'm mismanaging our time together in the evenings. I know this is too long, and a bit rambling, but does anyone have some concrete tips for me?? I could really do with them!

I am you. I have no tips but will be watching with interest!

Oh God, there must be someone who can help us!

This sounds similar to my house- hold on and I'll elaborate

This book is good - Siblings without Rivalry. really helpful in understanding sibling relationships and made me think about my own as I was growing up.
There are lots of strategies that you might find useful but I am sorry, I am too knackered to think of any

I know that my 5yr old would be hungry for dinner around 4.30pm after a day at school. Could that be why they're cranky (for want of a better word!)?

Bring dinner forward? Or are you waiting for your DH?

We had this. It took me years to work out what to do. Not saying this will work for you but it did (still does) for me.

As soon as they kick off, put them in different rooms. Don't negotiate, just explain. Explain that they need quiet time alone (not as punishment, as a need) as they are clearly unable to spend time together. Ask if they want a book or a toy and say they need at least 15 mins alone, until the kitchen timer goes off, then can come out and play together, if they agree to but can stay having down time if they find it more relaxing

The most important thing is not to give in to being their personal entertainer in the evenings. They need to learn to amuse themselves.

Can you maybe give the 7 yr old a responsible job, such as laying the table with matching cutlery so they all have the same, and praise him for it, to end fighting over that sort of thing?

I learned this magic phrase somewhere. No idea why it works, but it did for mine. It is: I know you can handle it. If they fight, say they need to find a resolution between themselves that they are all happy with, you know they can handle it and to let you know when it's resolved. Praise them if they manage it. My two used to trot off and negotiate stuff and come up with agreements and resolutions instead of squabbles. It was very sweet.

But also, it sounds as though you are maybe being over-excellent after school about attention and time with you. That's the time for a DVD or tv. They're knackered. Curl up and watch a bit of trashy tv with them, or let one have 30 mins on the computer while another helps cook tea, so they get small amounts of time alone with you.

That 10 times to brush teeth went on in our house for years. Think it's just a phase some children go through. If they try to strike up a conversation about anything else I just say 'teeth' - nothing else until they've done it.

agree bring tea earlier -
my 6 yo is allowed a bit of chillout in front of TV time after school -
they both have a snack then as well
I also would put something on probably when I was cooking
also what activities do you do after school , or older one could have friend round or you all could go round to someones house?

Ok my two are 4 and 18 months. If I leave the room the 4 year old is wrestling with the baby, knocking her over, pulling her hair, winding her up, telling her she smells etc.

My DD said to me the other day " I want you to kill ..... or put her in the bin- what are you going to choose" Sometimes I just want to tell people never to have two children- the fighting and squabbling is heartbreaking.

Like you I struggle to cook a meal for them at the moment as in the time it takes to cook an omelette there have usually been tears, bangs and crashes with me shouting through to the living room and trying to physically seperate them whilst trying to cook.

Basically it is worse during the 4-7 slot. So for tea they normally get a picnic tea. I bring in some bread or toast. While they are eating that I get some fruit, cheese etc chopped up, breadsticks and dip. At weekends I give them their main meal in the middle of the day. I take them out for lunch to a children centre or cheap cafe if I can. On days they are at nursery they used to get a cooked lunch so that took the pressure off in the evening. If yours can have a school lunch then again less pressure to cook in the evening.

Do what you can to get by. If it's fish fingers or Jacket potatoes too often so what.

As for how to solve the sibling rivalry/fighting I don't know. You may have heard of the Book Siblings without rivalry. It does have some good tips and helps you realise you are not alone. There's a lot about acknowledging their feelings even the unappetizing ones and trying to solve arguments by letting them resolve things/find a solution when they can (and knowing when to intervene).

I haven't managed to stop the fighting indoors but I do find they get on much better out and about and the eldest tends to act in a more caring big sisterly way then. Inside it's all about territory, toys and me. My eldest DD said to her sister yesterday "I love mummy more than you don't I".

Thank you.

Ohhelpohnoitsa - very good ideas, I think, about varying the routine, and actually bath first, then supper, then cosy time before bed. Also like the idea of a "Team Spirit reward chart a LOT.

Humphrey, I have that book and thought it was great. The gist seemed to be to leave them to their own squabbling devices, which I try to do, but the one-sidedness of it is too much to bear. 7yo whispering mean things into 3yo's ear, constantly, constantly telling him how rubbish he is at everything etc. I really struggle with this, as I'm always telling 7yo off about it, which compounds his impression that the 3yo is the enemy, but I can't bear to just let it go.

Shakey - we don't wait for dh, he doesn't get home till v. late. But they ARE hungry at 4.30... perhaps we should have a proper snack right when they get back (3yo just grabs a banana if he wants something).

racingheart I'm not even sure I'm going to have more than one child, but I still feel like pinning your post to some board somewhere for reference. Good work!

(I probably like it because my instinct was the same - seperate them for some quiet time. Everyone needs time to "do nothing". And you can't do nothing if someone else is nebbing at you.)

It could help. I know that when I'm hungry my concentration and rationale go out of the window! All I can think about is......food. And when I'm going to eat.

x-posts - thanks for all the other tips too, you have all been really helpful. racingheart - I think you're right about the separation, and the "I know you can handle this" (have tried this a bit from "Siblings without Rivalry", think I need to get back to it in earnest). I try to avoid screen time in the week as they're like crack addicts, but they do watch/play sometimes... and can STILL fight at the same time.

Gilberte you're right - at home, it's all so territorial. My 7yo is always saying "You love me more than him, right Mummy?".... God!

Oh, I didn't think that the book advised leaving them to their own devices at all - it certainly wouldn't be advocating leaving one child saying mean things to another. It would rather suggest talking to the 7 year old about his feelings for his brother, acknowledging his negative emotions and discussing the positive ones, but making it absolutely clear that mean comments are out of bounds.

The key here is making sure that the 7 year old is heard by you.

I feed my two (4 and 6) at 4.30 every day, and then give oatcakes and milk for supper before bed.

An0therName, 7yo does football once a week, goes to see a friend now and then, is thinking about signing up for chess. If it's just me and 3yo, we tend to potter, really, sometimes go for tea or ice cream.

Humphrey, I have had endless conversations with 7yo about his feelings for his brother! And I always make it very clear that I am listening to him, I hear him, I understand how annoying it is when his brother does x or x thing. And that certain behaviours/comments are not ok. Doesn't seem to be getting through though.

We actually do have success with saying "Ok, you two need to work this [conflict] out now, I know you can do it", which that book advises. But obviously that's not enough when it's getting into these verging-on-bullying realms.

I am listening to you, btw, and taking it all on board!

sorry to teach your grandmother to suck eggs and all that, just that I wanted to say how Siblings wasn't advocating leaving it.

It sounds to me as if you have lots of techniques up your sleeve but have had a bad few days. We all have them.

No, you're not at all, and I appreciate your advice. I feel a bit at the end of my tether because I feel like I've tried everything and nothing's working! But I obviously haven't tried everything, or at least haven't been consistent with things. I do think you're right about acknowledging 7yo's feelings and I think he needs more than I'm giving him.

Also - Gilberte - sorry, I didn't reply properly to you. Totally agree/sympathise will all you say! And keeping supper simple is key, you're right.

gloria, if i can reassure you on one point it is that what you say DOES go in, it just can take years sometimes for you to see it. i know you feel like you have been saying the same old things for years with no effect, but on some level it is going in and at some point you WILL reap the benefits. don't give up. sounds like you're doing marvellously.

Aw, thanks basking

Appreciated! Sorry I don't have more practical tips- but the responses you've had have been great.

You've all been really helpful, I actually feel quite positive!