How do I stop being shouty mum with children that live in a timeless dreamworld?

[Arana]

DS (4) and DD (2) are lovely, sweet, willful, but pretty much normal kids.

They do, however drive me up the wall sometimes, and the more stressed I am, the more inert they seem to get, and then I turn red, grow horns and turn into Shouty Mum. This generally seems to be whenever I put the pressure on to them to do something quickly/ in a timely manner.

Examples: DS refusing to put his trousers on so we can go shopping. He wants to go shopping, he has a choice of two pairs of trousers, he is perfectly capable of putting them on himself, but refuses to, for reasons he won't disclose. This goes on for 20 minutes. Result: Me turning into shouty mum, having to manhandle him into trousers while he cries.

DD eating her breakfast cereal one grain at a time, refusing to be fed, refusing to eat it faster. She will have had it for 40 minutes, eating it one grain at a time. Result: me turning into shouty mum, taking and binning her cereal and dealing with crying DD.

It's mainly dealing with time - they have no concept of it (which I understand, they're 2 and 4 - I'm 30 and I struggle with time) but even when everything is made easy for them, it just seems to backfire. I'm usually pretty laid back about timing, especially when it's not necessary (weekends), but we still have to get to nursery in time for me and DH to get the train to work, and next year DS will go to school, so again, will have to be ready on time.

I'm lucky that DS has always been an early riser. This means mornings are very leisurely, even when we have to be somewhere at a certain time. So an early start is my first tip. Wouldn't offer clothes choices on busy mornings but would recognise that 4yos still need help. Quicker to pour him into one set of clothes yourself and move on with the morning than it is to keep expecting him to do it himself and getting annoyed that it doesn't happen. 2yo that dawdle over breakfast. Give her a cup of milk and regard any cereal that goes down in the allotted time as a bonus. I'm sure they have snacks at nursery.

Show your 4yo the rudiments of how to read a clock over the holidays and try the countdown method of alerts. "20 minutes before we go shopping".... "we're leaving in 10".... "5 minutes and we're off". Maybe start a sticker chart reward scheme. If/when he gets his new school uniform how about time-trials? "How fast can you put everything on?"

We do most of that anyway. Early starts, time warnings etc.

We give him a choice for things that he had a breakdown over (breakfast cereals, clothes, cutlery) if it's the wrong one, but we limit the choice. As soon as we try and make it a challenge our a fun activity, it seems to backfire even worse, and creates more resistance.

Some more examples from dinner tonight: constant fidgeting and making noises from both DCs. DS talking non-stop, it's usually relevant, but he can talk non stop and not even pause for breath. DD getting up and down on her chair, fiddling, messing about, playing with her drink, kicking the table. She went to time out three times before the end of the meal. We gave up after half an hour and the rest of their food went in the bin after repeated warnings.

Mealtimes have always been a stress, but they're at the age now where they need to have table manners.

Reward charts have been no success. I wouldn't say they're particularly spoilt, but they do have lots of hand-me-down toys, and they can't seem to equate good behaviour with a reward in the future.

I'm at the end of my tether. I started work full time six months ago because the kids stressed me out so much. It's the weekends and evenings I struggle with now. Maybe I'm just not cut out to be a parent? Although I've never met anyone else that gets consistent positive results with the kids either.

[sigh]

Maybe save the angst over table manners for when it matters and try to relax about it the rest of the time? Warnings and time-outs etc. I've never found to be particularly effective. Setting expectations with fairly simple consequences I've had more success with. e.g. 'I'd like you to eat your meal without too much chatting and messing about today.... or we won't have time to do the fun thing/watch the DVD/go to the park/whatever'

It sounds like your dc would benefit from some natural time-related consequences.

For example if your ds takes too long putting on his trousers, that means you don't have enough time to go shopping and you have to go later, when you would have otherwise gone to the park (or some other thing he would have enjoyed)

It might be a pain for a couple of days but hopefully the message might get through.

I would not give him 20 minutes to dither, I would give him a count to three before I physically put the trousers on him. RE the cereal, I would buy an eggtimer, show her how fast it goes, and give her one turn of the egg timer to eat the cereal, then throw it away. She may be hungry the first day, maybe even the second, but she will soon stop fannying around. I don't waste their timre, they are not allowed to waste mine.

And about the meal, don't bother t6iming out and all that arsery. If they arehungry, they will sit and eat it. If they're not, throw it away.

I could have written your post OP. Everything is a battle atm!
I end up loosing my patience and shouting, and I hate it.

It took us well over an hour to get out to go to the park today, lots of refusals to put trousers on / tidy / put shoes on etc and lots of tears. DS fights me every step of the way. I really don't want to ban going to the park as a consequence as I know we'll be fine once we get out the door! (I understand I may have to though.)

We've got a tactic for bedtime which is working at the moment though. DS has 3 stories for bedtime if he's good. (This relates only to his behaviour at bedtime, not the rest of the day). If he mucks about (refusing to put PJs on or deliberately & repeatedly splashing water out of the bath - or whatever) then he looses a story. When we get to bed I don't admonish him about the stories he's lost - that he's lost them is enough. We simply enjoy the story/stories he does have.

It does seem to be working. He responded really well today when when I reminded him that he had to be good to keep his three stories, and he did keep all three tonight.

We hardly go to the park because of "time-related consequences" but that means they're even more wound up most of the time.

Usually I end up manhandling them and doing it myself, but I've got a bad back at the moment, and I just can't be physical with them. Also re: manners, I feel like they're getting to the age where I shouldn't have to physically dominate them to get them to do basic things.

THey get a bedtime story about 50% of the time again, due to |"time-related consequences".

We used to say "no stories" but that didn't make much difference in his actual behaviour. However we've found that having three, and counting down from that works, for some reason. He does improve his behaviour to keep them.

As does "I'm going to count to three! ..." although there's no consequence at 3, it's worked amazingly well on occasions - wearing off recently though.

I think DS is difficult partly because he's tired, he fights sleep and I'm not great at getting him to bed early if he doesn't seem tired. I need to get better at this I think. And making sure he gets more exercise so he is actually tired and sleeps well. Reckon we need to treat him like a puppy!

All easier said than done though when we have such a ridiculously hectic life atm ...

I got this book on the recommendation of a mumsnetter. Read the first few pages and seems good so far! Need to make some time to read it ...

Of course you could always try going to the other extreme. Lavish praise for even a glimmer of good behaviour. "I was so happy when you put your trousers on by yourself/ate your dinner nicely ... what a good boy/girl... how clever" etc. It might be slightly lost on the 2yo but siblings tend to be competitive and if she's getting praise, he'll sharpen up in an effort to get some

I was just about to write about praise, you beat me to it!

We realised recently that in all the rushing about we really weren't taking the time to praise DS enough when he was being good. And as it's the bloody simple things he's making a fuss about doing, I'm praising him for the bloody simple things too now!

So he got a load of praise this morning for simply putting his pants on without fuss. Before I realise I was taking it for granted that he should put his pants on without fuss, so not commenting when he did. So he was in effect getting more attention for being naughty than for being good.

We've had a ridiculously busy couple of years. The bottom line is that DS wants our attention - especially when we're really busy - and atm he's found that the best way of getting it is by being naughty / defiant. This is the biggest thing we're trying to change. Now we're here, it's going to take a while to train him out of it I think! And it's easier said than done, but we've got to do it.

He's a lovely little boy and I'd so much rather enjoy his company argue all the bloody time!

No idea of any of that applies to you or not, but I hope it helps :)

you said your DC's have lots of toys available? (passed on from older kids in family or whatever)...do you think making up some storage boxes and allowing certain toys at certain times would be 1 way to gain cooperation??so you can praise and reward more often and the toy is only available for that purpose?
Maybe a little tub each on the dinner table...for every mouthful eaten...a choc button or other yummy treat goes in their tub???

'can you put your clothes on now (no choices of what items) and then WE can talk about what we would like to do today....and I have some special jobs for you to do for me too, so lets go'!!!...sitting there with items in your hand..(eg the special shopping lists)curiosity will get the better of them and they will get dressed quick...

give them small shopping lists with pictures on to help you do the shopping, let them put things in the bag and give the money to the staff, etc (The sweet treats...never say no you can't have sweeties...always say yes we can get a treat and have it after lunch when we get home or whenever you choose to allow it)
then once we have done the shopping we can decide what we would like to do after lunch (get them to 'help' make lunch)...give them each a plate and put things on it they want to have from a range of choices on display for them...explaining that they eat what they choose to put on their plates...

They can wash the fruit at the sink, pick out cubes of cheese (counting), slices/pieces of cold meat, pick a yoghurt or whatever and juice, milk, water...making them feel they have some positive choices for themselves.....you go for a walk and practice road skills and not go to the park if lunch doesn't happen...having said that..if your DC chooses only a few cheese cubes and a drink...well thats fine and lunch has been a success and it's not about the amount they choose and eat...it's the doing that counts and lots of praise, keeping it positive will encourage more items on the plate next time...you can try this approach with any meal...put the food on the table and let them choose what to take...how much, etc...I think a big full plate is a tall order and children often are put under pressure to tackle too much

Limiting snacks inbetween and giving lots of choices...children won't starve themselves and put only small drinks out for them...so not filling up on milk or juice before the first mouthful!!!

Just a few idea's that might help....and try not to repeat yourself too much...get attention and explain once...don't nag or seem to focus on something too much...it's a target for NOT listening or cooperating!!!...just remove the plate ans say nothing...don't be defeated...keep it up...it will work in the end...

think of ways to make it interesting and ways they can feel they are achieving things themselves...positive choices...they want to exert ability..we have to give them ways of doing that
'I'm 4 and I can do things cos I'm a big boy/girl

Hi OP

There are lots of disciplining techniques you can try - you're already doing some of them, and others have been suggested above.

But from reading your posts, my feeling is that you might just need to adjust your expectations a little. Maybe you are putting too much pressure on yourself to be a perfect mother with perfect kids?

The sentences that stand out for me are:

"DS talking non-stop, it's usually relevant, but he can talk non stop and not even pause for breath. DD getting up and down on her chair, fiddling, messing about, playing with her drink, kicking the table.... they're at the age now where they need to have table manners". This sounds to me like normal behaviour for a 2 and 4 year old. As long as they're not throwing food or standing on their chairs, I think the most important thing at this age is for them to say please and thankyou and eat a reasonably healthy balanced diet. I'd worry about table manners when they're a bit older.

"I've never met anyone else that gets consistent positive results with the kids" - honestly, if you're aiming for that you may as well give up now!!

"I'm at the end of my tether" - this is quite a strong phrase to use! What you have described is pretty normal behaviour. Try not to get so stressed about it.

"We hardly go to the park because of time-related consequences" and "they get a bedtime story about 50% of the time, again due to time-related consequences" - sorry, but I find this very sad. Going to the park and reading are both fantastic things to do with your kids. If you are so busy punishing them that they are regularly missing out on these, then something is going wrong with your disciplining system.

I hope I haven't offended you OP - that is not my intention. I just want you to relax and enjoy your kids a bit more!

Another thread put me onto the Quick Kids app which gives them a personalised star chart and a countdown (that you can set). Mine are the same age as yours and the older one is definitely into it! And it's free (so long as you have the technology of course).

Have you tried timing the 4yo?

I know it sounds overly simple, but whenever I want DD to hurry up and she is being difficult I say get my phone out and say "Right I'm going to time how fast you can get dressed, and stand at the door ready to go. Ready? Steady? GO!!!" (or whatever).

She LOVES it - it is very effective. I am gobsmacked at how effective it is and how it can turn a potentially bad situation around (shouty genes here)..

This is the thing, I want to read them bedtime stories, I want to take them to the park, but they just don't seem that fussed. I've used stories/park as a reward and no-stories/no-park as a punishment, and neither seems to have any effect.

Motherofallhangovers funnily enough, counting to 3 with no stated consequences is probably the most effective method we've had.

I've tried racing /timing, with no effect. Sometimes DS wanting to have his picture taken when he's dressed works as an incentive, but backfires more often than not.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a 2 and a half and a 4 and a half year old to sit at the table for fifteen minutes and eat a meal. I'm not expecting perfect behaviour, but I'd like them to not spill their drinks/drop their cutlery because they're messing about (a regular behaviour - and DS refuses a lidded cup/beaker). I'd also like them to not to have to get up for no reason other than fidgets/the need to jump/the fact she's seen one of her toys on the floor behind her etc. We often let them choose their meal, or at least certain aspects of it, so they have some influence over what they eat - it's not all choicelessly inflicted on them.

DS is like this too and it drives me mad - but I know exactly where he gets it from, me!

Apparently we get most annoyed by the traits in our children which are reflections of ourselves.

I find building in extra time helps, although doesn't always help enough. And often entering into a discussion/argument/stand off because I want him to do something in a quicker way ends up being slower than just letting him do it his way. He's 3.9 and perfectly capable of dressing himself but asks for me to do it much of the time, and if he's in a frustrating mood, will do something like give me his trousers and ask me to put them on but then bend over with his bum and one leg in the air telling me to put them on like that. So now, I tell him calmly "I can't put them on like that. Stand up please if you want me to help you." and if he refuses then I put the trousers down, say "I can't help you then, sorry, you'll have to do it yourself" and walk away. He will scream and ask me to come back, but now I have a bargaining chip, so I say "Okay, I'll help, but you have to stand up properly." and normally this is quicker - okay not as quick as him dressing himself while I do other things, but better than a stand off.

I would stop using park and stories as rewards/punishments if they're having no effect.

Don't give them a choice in the first place! And, if they're still dithering, just help them put on their trousers, or whatever.

Re the food, ime cereal is the slowest breakfast to eat for ditherers. I make waffles (mostly the night before, and the reheat them) with fruit that, if they're still dithering, can be eaten on the go.

Do I want kids that eat on the go? NO!!! But I want to shout at my ditherers even less, so it's the better of two evils.

AND BUY A TIME TIMER!! Best investment ever!!!

A time timer? Is that like a clock?

If they don't choose quickly enough, we choose for them, they know that, but I don't think it's unreasonable for them to want to have a say in what they eat/wear.

Especially as if I'd said they didn't have a choice, half of the suggestions would be to let them have a choice as then they'll feel more engaged in the activity .

On a side note, we had a meltdown this morning. DS refused a sandwich, yoghurt or cereal for breakfast, so as we were leaving we said he could take a piece of fruit with him to eat on the way.

We'd bought a load of bananas at the weekend that DS seemed really keen on, so we suggested he eat one of these.

Cue absolute meltdown. Apparently he didn't choose the bananas because he likes to eat them. He chose them because they'r yellow (his favourite colour), begin with a B (as does his name) and had his favourite number 0 in the price.

LOL! Yes just like a clock, but a little different! You pull the time back from 12 and it shows up in red. It then beeps when you've finished your time.

I know it sounds stupid, but it's REALLY helped keep my completely distracted kids get a little on track for homework, chores, etc.

Haha, oh I'm glad it's not just me. DS seems to choose things based on the most arbitrary reasons too. At the moment he has to do eenie-meenie-miney-mo on everything. EVERYTHING.

Re choice, try not offering a choice. Try offering a very limited choice. Try offering free choice and then negotiating/whittling down to something reasonable. See which is most often quickest - they respond to different things.