How the hell do you discipline a 21 month old?

[marzipananimal]

I'm open to suggestions from anyone - from Smackers to AP hippies! (Can you tell I'm a bit desperate?!)

DS is generally a pretty good natured, lively toddler and is reasonably laid back BUT he has a real cheeky/defiant streak that I'm really struggling to deal with. I try distraction or 'you can't do that but you can do this' type thing but that doesn't work for every situation.

Particular problems at the moment are: biting (me and DH, not other children fortunately), throwing food, touching oven, and opening fridge freezer.

I'm tearing my hair out at times. I think it's difficult because I'm not entirely surely how much he understands (he's not talking much yet so communication can be tricky), and I struggle to keep my temper :(

Any advice gratefully received.

That book sounds good 3rdnparty, funnily enough my Dad use to say gently bentley when we were little! I think my expectations probably are too high, but it's really hard not to take the biting personally sometimes.

BoffinMum - I must be really lacking on the firm tone of voice front, it never even raises a lip wobble let alone a cry! (Actually I don't think it's me, I think he's just a tough little blighter)

Hully that's what DH does

Thanks Toaster, I'll look into the ikea cupboard locks

And we would tell her no biscuits etc, but if she insists we would say ok, a small bit, and give that to her. Or warn her that it's the last one.

I read somewhere that when a toddler hears no, s/he feels like you would if you were refused a mortgage or passed over for promotion, so we try to compromise if we can. This means when we say no she's more likely to accept it.

Well my DS had am element of this - but not as much by the sound of it. I remember feeding him when his front toosy pegs had emerged (he was 'weaned' at 9 months) and he experimentally nipped me! I screamed and he came off surprised and looked at me wonderingly whilst I gave him a lecture on breast etiquette coupled with the threat that any more of that and all privileges would be withdrawn...
Rather thoughtfully he latched on again and was as good as gold thereafter! So we had a bit of a battle of wits and I would try to out smart/outmanoeuvre or simply distract him with a totally off the wall tactic eg in the supermarket I found a bottle of bleach that started arguing with me not to take it off the shelf away from its friends - it became a bit of a battle and inevitably I asked DS's opinion (he was amused!) Later he would be embarrassed by mad mummy and do anything to shut me up! Recently aged 17 when we had been talking about some sex/relationship matter or other that had arisen with someone at school he simply observed 'Nothing embarrasses you does it Mum?'

My parents got nasty if I argued the toss and would end up smacking me up to age 15 so I always encourage argument and if they make a case for something I can be persuaded - if they shout or threate it rules them out of the conversation - so I would ignore them for a short time then start afresh with a distraction. Starting up a conversation with another customer in the shop always got them intrigued and out of the parent/child paradigm which can become such a plughole! My DCs did start day nursery at 5 1/2 months and were used to interacting with others and were perhaps aware of and knew how to relate to other people to a greater degree than young children kept at home so perhaps my task was made easier...
Try being one step ahead of them and take the initiative rather than follow their tedious lead in essence - and encourage them to take a fun lead and delight you! Sorry this has gone on a bit guys.

This is all really useful - I'm struggling a bit with 23 month old DS as he's got to the stubborn stage and cannot bear it if he's not allowed/can't do something he want to do. Yesterday i took him swimming and he could stand up in the shallow end but kept walking towards the deep end and then of course going underwater and me grabbing him. He kicked up an almighty fuss and I had to take him home in the end as he would Not Stop doing it. Everything is 'No!' at the moment.

I am very heartened by EauRouge saying she found the age 12-23 months the hardest!

The main thing that has helped me deal with all 3 DC at this age, was information given at a 1 year olds group I went to at local Sure Start...

• up to the age of 4 (ish, some are quicker to develop than others), toddlers can only understand their own point of view. They do 'naughty' things because they are exploring and finding out about the world, and people. These will be repeated if the toddler gets something out of it.

This helped me feel calmer initially, because I know they aren't doing things to wind me up, but because they can only see things from their point of view.

Then, I observe, or try to step back (or sometimes ask a close friend or my DSis to do so), and try to figure out what they are getting out of their 'naughty' behaviour. One, or all, of my DC have done things your DS is doing, so will give reasons mine were and see if there are any 'matches' with what your DS is doing.

Biting - DC3 bit. Kept a mental record of what was going on at the time, and it went like this...I asked her to get shoes on, she said no, I picked her up to put shoes on, she bit me, I said 'Mummy doesn't like it when you bite' and walked away, DC3 didn't put shoes on. (Sounds very straightforward, but taked ages to tick over what is really happening when you're removing a clenched jaw from your arm). So, I now, give a 5 minute 'going out' warning, offer a choice of where she sits to put shoes on (2 choices, chair/floor) and then put her shoes on without discussing further.

Throwing food - all 3 DC at one point or another. Variously because I was breastfeeding younger sibling, they had been given too much and wanted it off their plates, or because it's pretty amusing for a toddler to watch food flying around. So, don't give eye contact, just take plate away and say 'dinner's finished'. Don't mention again, but give big praise and attention at next meal if they are sitting still and food is either in plate or mouth.

Fridge opening/oven touching - generally at point when I was trying to wash up/prepare food, and they wanted to grab my attention. Try to pre empt by setting them up with something they like (mine are allowed their TV ration at 4 o'clock, when I know I'll need to be doing dinner/packed lunches/setting table and they'll be tired and getting hungry. Failing that, a large sheet of paper and a pair of safety scissors has always proved to keep mine enthralled for a good half hour, just hoover up tiny pieces of paper afterwards.

So, my marathon message is mainly, he's not being 'naughty', he is being normal for his age. Your time will be better spent observing what he gets out of it (by looking at what is happening before and after the behaviour happens), and changing what you do to either pre empt or remove the enjoyment/avoidance/attention that he is getting.

OP, it must be massively frustrating for you, I understand, DD is 18 months and I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall. I do try and distract/ offer something else when I don't want her to do anything, sometimes this works but mostly she just screams and flings herself at me, clutching my trousers and leaning. Every time, without exception, this week that I have tried to put her in her car seat or buggy she screams and writhes, and it is so hard to strap her in. 90% of the time this also happens when I am trying to change her nappy. She kicks and pushes me away while trying to get away. It's awful and I have no idea how to stop this!!!

She is also a runner....but I have a rucksack! Half the time she gets so cross that I am stopping her though that she lies down on the floor and screams as well.

I keep thinking this is just a phase, it will pass, like the colic, the high pitched screaming, the non-sleeping....

But, like today, when I was feeling so run-over by it all, she sat in the bath and blew me lots of kisses. She really is so unbelievably loving when she wants to be!!!!!!!

OP, I hope that these phases pass for both of us!!!!!

I walk off when mine bites. Or I turn his buggy round so I can't see him and give my attention to the victim.

Also at 21 months you could use counting. 'come here so we can put your shoes on. 1,2,3, OK time out. Then use the step technique calmly and fairly.

Play up to things being hot. 'hot hot, no touch' then pretend to touch it yourself and find it scolding.

Get the super nanny book from library and follow it to the letter. They are tried and tested methods used in child care and argumentally not her own theories, but they do work.
Do get down to their level, don't threaten anything you aren't prepared to uphold, tell them what they are doing wrong, give them warnings e.g 3 strikes and out. Keep taking them back to the step. It's not a naughty step as this reinforces self fullfilling prophecy. Call them naughty and they will be.
Count to 10 and don't yell. Contravertial, but maybe bite back. Somebody did this to my ds I was horrified when I found out (it was an adult), ds never did it again. Good luck, I promise it gets better , its tough when they are little, but they are learning.

OP you appear to have stolen my child . Actually, mine doesn't do the biting, but he does all the rest of it (and he's a terrible runner-away).

Not much advice, really, as I'm struggling through it myself, but I do think the language thing has a huge amount to do with it. DS1 was quite an early talker, and I never had anything like the terrible twos from him (the threes were a nightmare, but that's a whole other thread). But DS2 isn't really saying anything yet, and I do think he finds it incredibly frustrating. I was reading quite an encouraging study the other day that said that children who aren't talking at two have far more behavioural problems at that time than early talkers, but that once they start talking properly any differences disappear.

I put my DS in his crib when he would bite or hit at that age and walk away for a short time.

Bertie do you have a particular book or guide you refer to? You seem lovely and parent how I want to. I was a very gentle parent to babies, but find it more challenging with 3 small ones who argue a lot and end up yelling, and I'm generally quite a calm person who doesn't get wound up easily. Your advice makes a lot of sense to me, particularly how you explain things, I need more advice like that! (sorry OP, didn't mean to deviate from your post).

I agree with letting them touch something hot, they don't always understand the concepts we throw at them, one touch of a hot (obviously not too hot) oven and they understand that it's not pleasant. I do admit to biting back, on the same principle that they don't understand it's not nice if they haven't experienced it, only needed to do it once.

No I don't, I generally go by instinct. I am a lot better at working out the theory after something actually happens though as I tend to get wound up, but I really try hard to keep it in mind for next time, and overall it does seem to work well for us.

As I said the threads we had on here before were massively helpful - if anybody wants to start a new gentle parenting thread I'd love to join it :) (in fact might start one myself!)

How To Talk So Kids Will Listen is a good book with some good suggestions, although it's aimed really at primary school aged children. They have a book called Siblings Without Rivalry which seems based on the same gentle principles, though?

It's more trying to keep in mind a set of principles when trying to work out how to deal with stuff, than following any kind of set formula. I'm about to go out but I tell you what - I'll write out the principles as the start of a new thread later (because I have a feeling I'll waffle and it will take me ages) and I'll put a link here, so it doesn't derail but anyone who is interested can come and discuss it :)

My DS is 21 months too - he's usually a lovely, v cheery little chap but he's also big for his age and very strong and when he does go into tantrum mode in public I find him hard to deal with, esp because I'm preg with #2 and the last thing I want is a kick in the belly. Yesterday when it was time to leave mum and toddlers he wailed the place down (and he is LOUD), lay on the ground, wouldn't walk, kicked, screamed, the whole lot. I had to get him under the arms and kind of walk him along to the car and then bribe him with raisins to get into his carseat.

He's sooooo much easier to manage in the house but public places - whether it's a cafe, the park, Tesco, mum&toddler, swimming pool, wherever - he just gets very hyper and wound up by the new surroundings and all the people around and about 1 time in 5 you have an absolute toddler monster on your hands. It's not so bad if DH or my mum or someone is with us, but on my own with him I just silently despair.

I hear it's a phase!!! I'm also reading Toddler Taming, I like the author's approach, if you haven't checked it out it might be worth a read, there's some good tips and a lot of reassurance in there

Thank you Bertie, I actually ordered both those books on Amazon just a couple of days ago!

I would have suggested the same two books Bertie did - life saving even with very young children.

I can't wait to get my hands on them! I've always been quite instinctive until now, but with now 2, 4 and 6 yr olds, all the bickering is getting to me, and I'm too wound up to think with much empathy!!

One thing I try to do is be absolutely consistent and not let my DD get away with anything.

God makes me sound like tyrant, but you know what I mean - even when I am absolutely knackered and frankly don't care if she is chucking food around the kitchen or biting the cat, I go through the whole rigmarole of firm no, etc.

Fridge lock (if yours is a pain to use, get a different type - they only cost a couple of quid. We had a stick-on one from Ikea. It fell off after a year, but by then the phase was over. I just need one for DH now!)

Oven guard or baby gate blocking access to kitchen if possible. If DD went near the oven, I really shouted at her. One of the very few times I ever have. Shouting shocked her so much she cried her eyes out, and I felt terrible, but she never tried to touch the oven again.

We used naughty step a handful of times.

You can't do much to change their behaviour really, just make it difficult for them to do it. And ride it out. Remember, this too shall pass...

I have a 4,3 and2 year old. They're amazing, fantastic, brilliant and yet rude, infuriating and soul destroying.
Everything is a phase.
If I've learnt one thing, after reading a lot of the aforementioned books is:
Give an either/or choice rather than a 'what shall we do next?' kind of question
When you're having a really shitty day/week/month behaviour wise - go completely OTT jumping up and down mad when they do good things. That might just be playing nicely together, but tell them how well tenure doing and reward them for it.
Im forever saying 'what would you think if someone did that to you / would you like it'?
Here, you dont get to play with my iPhone/iPad/telly if you're unkind. I know they're little, but they still love playing various apps sometimes.
I write this with a sore throat after 4 year old shut 2 year olds fingers in a glass door whilst 3 year old laughed.
Best advice: beer o' lock / wine o'clock. And an early bed time for them!

Have you heard of Tizzie Hall's Holding Technique? We found it good with the touching fireplace issue and have now progressed onto using it when DS (19m) hits people or touches the oven etc. You have to do it probalby 30 times+ but the message gets through more powerfully than verbal reprimands. Here's a link

Enjoying the top tips.

DS aged 25mths -I say 'no biting' (or hitting - both saved solely for me) quite sternly and put him on the floor and walk away. Very rarely bites/hits now.
He was taught hot months ago with a hot radiator and fully understands it as 'ow' (just as BerieBotts says)
When there is no tantrum involved but its something I don;t want him to do I put him on my lap and say 'mummy doesn;t want you to...... because.... and he is distracted enough to stop.

Our son is 28 months old now but for a few months if he is naughty we say no & if he still does it he goes into his cot for a few minutes. Now that he's older we say no & say if he does it again he's going to bed & he understands. Obviously doesn't always work though!

With biting (only happened once or twice) we did: " no don't bite. biting hurts. we bite apples not people."
Then immediately, carry child towards fruitbowl and say in an upbeat way, we've moved on sorta way "do you want an apple?" VERY EFFECTIVE

I probably need a fridge lock because that it the bane of my life and NOTHING WORKS.

works re kicking and balls, hitting and pillows etc "no don't kick. kicking hurts. we kick balls not people." "shall we play football?" etc.

With my dd if she ever hurt me this was a big no no and she would get shouted at (I shout very rarely so the shock factor often worked!) If she was driving me mad and I could feel myself getting wound up occasionally I would pick her up and put her in the cot and leave her there for 5 mins or so, she never worked out how to climb out though and occasionally she would give up tantruming and go to sleep!!! This worked primarily by giving me space to collect my thoughts and put the kettle on