Yet another thread by me asking for help!

[PooPooInMyToes]

So . . . took the kids to the park. All was lovely and fun. Had picnic, played and then went exploring which the kids love. All was fine. Found a little river. Started to rain a bit so took shelter under a bridge. The kids thought that was great fun. All was lovely.

DD6 (just) started saying she was scared under the bridge. Fine. Reassured her. She kept saying it over and over. She wanted to go somewhere else. Explained a lot that we would get wet and that would mean we would have to go straight home. Showed her the rain falling on the water to show her how heavy it was. Told her to listen to the rain to hear how heavy it was. Talked about it a lot.

She kept on though so I said the choice was either, wait until rain stops then we can carry on exploring, or leave the bridge now get wet and go home. Either was fine with me.

She wanted to leave. Fine. I didn't want her to be scared.

So I put a blanket over their heads to reduce how wet they would get. They thought this was great fun. Came out from under bridge. It was raining quite hard. I had no hood and was getting soaked. Kids walked along next to each other with blanket were still getting a bit wet.

DD wanted to go one way but the car was in the other direction so we couldn't. DD started wailing and saying she didn't want to go home. (didn't we just discuss this!) I said we had already decided. She wanted to get back under the bridge. I said but you were scared under the bridge! She said that she didn't want to get wet cos then we would have to go home. But that's what we had discussed in detail and decided on based on what SHE wanted and how SHE felt!

It was too late. We were wet. We had to keep going in the rain and walk back to the car.

She wailed and wailed and wailed and even had a stampy foot mini tantrum. She's 6! Surely she's too old for that? At least that's what I told her.

She then said that she wanted to go down the road that was in the wrong direction. I suspect she had lied about being scared all along so we would explore immediately in the direction she wanted to go. I don't like this manipulation. Not pleased.

She was wailing so much so wouldn't hold the blanket properly. Younger DC was getting wet. She was getting wet. Rearranged blanket. Still wailing and not holding blanket. Younger DC getting soaked.

I get worst mum of the day award for losing it with her. I told her repeatedly to shut up (which anyone who has read my "shut up" thread will know I hate and find a horrible thing to say to a child). I swore, threatened her with a smack (something I have never done before, I don't smack), and I even called her a fucking bitch!

Does anyone have any words of wisdom? Usually Cognito comes along at this point and explains very sensibly and wisely where I went wrong. (obviously the whole last paragraph is wrong!) Cognito . . . you must think I am an idiot!

We just got home. DD was told to go to her room. Just checked on her, she's fallen asleep and looking like a beautiful angel. We haven't spoken yet. Obviously I will apologise for the bad thing I said.

Think I'm going to cry now.

You're not an idiot but you did your usual thing of going for too much explanation. When under the bridge, for example your response should have been 'no' (and 'stop being ridiculous') .... until you decided it was time to leave. By cajoling and explaining and ultimately leaving the shelter you had a) given in and b) agreed that there was something to be scared of. Once she had you in giving-in mode, she pulled all the strings and made an even bigger fuss. By trying to be accommodating you end up very frustrated.

Please practice saying 'no' firmly. Sometimes (often) it is a complete sentence and, by being in control, you don't enter into these Alice in Wonderland arguments you never seem to win.

And do not apologise because that just says 'you win'. Instead, phrase it as follows. "I didn't enjoy getting annoyed today and I'm sure you didn't either. I'd like you to apologise for your appalling behaviour. In future you'll have to do as you're told or there will be no more trips to the park"

I agree, too much explanation all round. However, I think if my dd (7) had said she was scared and I had thought it was genuine I would have said we would leave. When she started stomping, I would have rearranged blanket over myself and other dc and carried on walking (slowly so she could catch up). I would have avoided any further discussion of the subject with her.

Of course that is on a good day. On a bad day I may have snapped "shut up" too and been racked with guilt afterwards.

Cognito

But is it not cruel to make her stay somewhere she felt scared? I can't imagine doing that! I would have hated that as a child and would have felt ignored.

I did tell her there was nothing to be scared off. It doesn't seem like listening to my child when she tells me she is scared should be the catalyst for the madness that follows.

I don't feel that by listening to her I should expect the wailing or be able to predict that. I had no idea that she was likely to be telling fibs.

BTW do you have an alarm that goes off when I post?

No... she wasn't scared. She was creating a drama. A lot of little girls like to squeal at any silly thing.

Sheer fluke :)

In all honesty, I think your mistake was engaging in her demands not to go back to the car. ng e

I go with a solid, non compromising, no discussion, find a phrase and repeat it, add in the odd 'I'll answer that when we are IN THE CAR', ignore the wailing approach.

I'm a big believer in letting children deal with consequences. So tbh

MrsMicawber I like your description of me as a "proactive adventurous mummy"! (ignoring the fact it says EFFORTS TO BE A . . . )

GooseyLoosey So you would have left too? That makes me feel less stupid. I can't bear the wailing though, I can't tune it out!

Making her stay where she felt scared: did you say ofgs do be quiet, there's nothing scary, or did you say come here and I'll give you a cuddle, I will protect you from...er, what are you scared of, exactly, dd.....?

In your OP you pretty much say the latter. Sometimes children need jollying along to reassure them, of course hard to know when that's the right tactic.

So no, not cruel imo.

I think the wailing might have been something to do with being caught out and shooting herself in the foot. Which of course you can't predict.

CogitoErgoSometimes "No... she wasn't scared. She was creating a drama."

But how do I know that at the time? She was saying very seriously that she was scared, she didn't like it and wanted to leave. It was a tad creepy under there which obviously I didn't let on that I thought that and instead pointed out all the things we could see and the grafitti pictures etc (not the swear words!) I would never dream on making them stay somewhere they find scary if my efforts to reassure and distract don't work. So how the hell do I tell?!

She wasn't doing silly girly jumpy up and down pretend scared stuff.

QIelf If it were a 2 yo I guess I would have picked her up under my arm, no cuddles, and carried her down the road. I probably would have told her to pack it in (she could communicate very well at 2). I may have lost my temper as I was as useless then as I am now.

Regarding the choice to leave the bridge I am glad there is someone who would have done some things similar.

"Think about exactly what was the catalyst for you losing your temper"

If it knew that it would change my life and probably the future of my children! I so wish I knew why I can't handle the wailing. Perhaps it is the feeling of loss of control. I don't know. If it is what do i do about it. Take back control? How do I do that? Usually tactic is to get her to stop the thing that has made me lose it in the first place which is to try to get her to be quiet but of course that is hard.

QIelf Making her stay where she felt scared: did you say ofgs do be quiet, there's nothing scary, or did you say come here and I'll give you a cuddle, I will protect you from...er, what are you scared of, exactly, dd.....?

I just said there was nothing to be scared of, no cuddles, talked about other things, got them to pose for some photos to show daddy later, pointed out a woman and her dog, ducks etc. Often that approach I find will have her forget but she kept coming back to it and saying she was scared so i took her at her word.

Perhaps instead of trying to get back the control I need to accept that I don't have it at that moment . . . shit that's nearly made me cry! That's not right is it?

Sometimes I think I need counselling. I don't know what's wrong with me. I feel that i am messing up my children's lives. I don't want them to grow up around so much anger. I don't want them to feel scared of me when i lose my temper. A tiny bit scared I suppose is normal but sometimes I feel like it is tooooo scared.

"How do I know that at the time"

You don't. But if you look around and there's nothing to be genuinely scared of then your confidence should win the day, regardless of how they feel. A little like when the aeroplane hits turbulence and the seat-belt signs are on. You look at the cabin crew and, if they're still walking about calmly with beatific smiles on their faces, you accept 'it must be OK' even though your heart is in your mouth. If they started showing us to the exits and handing out parachutes you'd think the thing was going down....

You're not messing up your children's lives. You're confusing anger with frustration and your frustration is stemming from trying to treat your daughter as a rational adult when she is not. You're going too much for 'sell', understanding, explanation and consensus when what a lot of small children prefer is 'tell' because it defines the boundaries and makes them fell safe. If you can get past the idea that 'tell' is somehow wrong then I think you'd all be happier and things would be less incendiary.

yyy you don't know at the time

I think with the wailing it's this: it's annoying. And there could be many levels to this. But no one loves it. You just have to focus on the point at home when they can be gently wafted into another room with as many doors between you as possible.

I notice she wasn't wailing when she was scared, just when things didn't go as she had hoped.

What do you mean by getting back the control? Do you mean controlling the situation so that dd wouldn't have cried?

V good points about sell and tell.

Cognito

You're going too much for 'sell', understanding, explanation and consensus when what a lot of small children prefer is 'tell' because it defines the boundaries and makes them fell safe. If you can get past the idea that 'tell' is somehow wrong then I think you'd all be happier and things would be less incendiary.

Hmm that's interesting. Why DO I think tell is bad? My own mum never explained anything to me. She had plenty of her own issues that it would take too long to explain here but perhaps this is connected.

I did decide that when i had children I would listen to them and explain things. I was aware a long while back that I had taken that too far and things have changed a lot.

I would never have imagined that giving my daughter the choice between staying somewhere she didn't like or leaving, with a clear explanation as to consequences would be wrong. That's what we are supposed to do isn't it? Listen to them. Give them choices. It was only 2 choices so I thought it was ok. In the past I used to give to many, but 2!

I just did not see it coming. Sometimes I can feel it. I see her get a bit anxious. Since some advice you gave me a few weeks back I have been much firmer and stopping her in her tracks. A "that is enough" way which puts an end to it with a firm voice before anything escalates. I had felt that I was doing quite well. Still learning and practicising because it's a while before these changes become second nature, but doing well anyway. I was pleased with myself.

QIelf "What do you mean by getting back the control?"

I don't know really. You asked "Think about exactly what was the catalyst for you losing your temper"

and I thought maybe it was the fact that she is wailing and I can't stop her. That I don't understand it or know how to deal with it. When I read what you wrote my immediate thought was about control. I'm not a controlling person so it doesn't make that much sense. I think maybe I just meant that it makes me panic a bit. I'm not sure. I am talking in a circle and am not sure what I meant now.

Perhaps I need to accept that she is crying, that she is not being reasonable, that it's not my fault and there is nothing I can do about it that wouldn't result in her using wailing in the future to get her own way, take a deap breath and then . . .

not sure. Cope?

Do I perhaps not want her to be upset? Perhaps the issue is there. Perhaps that is why i get so frustrated. I do tend to get frustrated easily about that with both my children, unless they have fallen over or another child has been horrible to them. Why don't I have the patience for it? Do I think it's a weakness? Does it remind me of something? Me?

I feel there is something deaper.

I was intending on reading about Transactional Analysis. I was wondering if that would help.

You did the right thing exactly, imo, wrt the two choices. It is NOT your fault that she had a tantrum. Don't beat yourself up for that one, that was down to her and in no way your doing. If you had refused to leave the bridge, she may have done the same thing. You couldn't stop that happening and at some point you have to shrug and let children make their own mistakes and decisions. She won't throw a tantrum like that in a hurry because it made you furious, she didn't get what she wanted, and she got wet.

Incidents like these have a brilliant silver lining. Next time she is about to go postal, say 'remember last time.....?' and give her a steely look. I go for a 'if you do x, y will happen. You choose.'

Also, I have just realised that my technique is to say 'here is the thing. This is why the thing has come to pass. So that's why the thing.' There then follows a short Q&A followed by someone stropping and me saying 'yeah, still, it's happening' and largely ignoring what is less bad behaviour and more an expression of feeling, which leads me to this:

You gave her two choices. She ballsed up, she miscalculated, she was furious about it. And directed that fury at you. However, what she was also doing, in a 6 yo way, was saying 'oh bugger.' Yes, horrible noise etc., but that's what she was doing, venting her fury. It was directed at you because she hasn't the capacity to sit back and ponder where she went wrong. What she was doing, in a loud and highly inconvenient way, was expressing herself in the only way she could come up with.

You can explain and tell. I do it in this manner.

1. Here is the plan
2. This is the reason the plan is as it is
3. Yes it's a bummer, here is the small compensation, repeat of reasons
4. But the plan will be happening because I am the grown up and, er, I say so
5. A short Q & A, mostly repeating of reasons and requests that 'but whyyyyy?' is part of a coherent sentence
6. Implementation of plan
7. Distinct lack of jubilation from some quarters. Bah. But sod it.

There is explaining and discussing - these are two very different things and as the parent, you are in charge and you will be making the decisions. This doesn't mean you haven't discussed - in this instance clearly you did, and handed over the decision to your dd, which was justified. Maybe she doesn't like making decisions? Some children can't handle that, and deal better with being told.

Again, apols for hectoring and blethering.

" That's what we are supposed to do isn't it? "

Not necessarily. Depends entirely on the situation and what mood you're in. Sometimes, if you're feeling particularly mellow and patient with lots of time to kill, or you're not that bothered about the outcome, you can engage in great long pointless discussions. Other times if you're already feeling a bit stressed or there's time pressure, you have to take charge or all you achieve is getting more wound up. And if a situation is particularly urgent or important, wasting time explaining and cajoling can be totally inappropriate.

No-one's saying be a martinet. But if you're ignoring your instincts purely to be a) not your mother and b) some mythical ideal you made before you had children, then I think you risk falling short.

Cogito It was so fine though. I was chilled. I offered the choices. There wasn't even really discussion as I only offered 2 choices. I just didn't see it coming. I was very calm as was she. Everything was fine.

I don't think I am ignoring my instincts. My instincts are to discuss with her but I have been training myself not to enter into debate with her and I don't think i did.

QIelf You did the right thing exactly, imo, wrt the two choices. It is NOT your fault that she had a tantrum. So you think that tantrums and wailing will still often happen no matter if you do things right, accept it and don't let it get to me? It's not personal? I did things ok and it still happened? Perhaps I take it personally.