Yet another thread by me asking for help!

[PooPooInMyToes]

So . . . took the kids to the park. All was lovely and fun. Had picnic, played and then went exploring which the kids love. All was fine. Found a little river. Started to rain a bit so took shelter under a bridge. The kids thought that was great fun. All was lovely.

DD6 (just) started saying she was scared under the bridge. Fine. Reassured her. She kept saying it over and over. She wanted to go somewhere else. Explained a lot that we would get wet and that would mean we would have to go straight home. Showed her the rain falling on the water to show her how heavy it was. Told her to listen to the rain to hear how heavy it was. Talked about it a lot.

She kept on though so I said the choice was either, wait until rain stops then we can carry on exploring, or leave the bridge now get wet and go home. Either was fine with me.

She wanted to leave. Fine. I didn't want her to be scared.

So I put a blanket over their heads to reduce how wet they would get. They thought this was great fun. Came out from under bridge. It was raining quite hard. I had no hood and was getting soaked. Kids walked along next to each other with blanket were still getting a bit wet.

DD wanted to go one way but the car was in the other direction so we couldn't. DD started wailing and saying she didn't want to go home. (didn't we just discuss this!) I said we had already decided. She wanted to get back under the bridge. I said but you were scared under the bridge! She said that she didn't want to get wet cos then we would have to go home. But that's what we had discussed in detail and decided on based on what SHE wanted and how SHE felt!

It was too late. We were wet. We had to keep going in the rain and walk back to the car.

She wailed and wailed and wailed and even had a stampy foot mini tantrum. She's 6! Surely she's too old for that? At least that's what I told her.

She then said that she wanted to go down the road that was in the wrong direction. I suspect she had lied about being scared all along so we would explore immediately in the direction she wanted to go. I don't like this manipulation. Not pleased.

She was wailing so much so wouldn't hold the blanket properly. Younger DC was getting wet. She was getting wet. Rearranged blanket. Still wailing and not holding blanket. Younger DC getting soaked.

I get worst mum of the day award for losing it with her. I told her repeatedly to shut up (which anyone who has read my "shut up" thread will know I hate and find a horrible thing to say to a child). I swore, threatened her with a smack (something I have never done before, I don't smack), and I even called her a fucking bitch!

Does anyone have any words of wisdom? Usually Cognito comes along at this point and explains very sensibly and wisely where I went wrong. (obviously the whole last paragraph is wrong!) Cognito . . . you must think I am an idiot!

We just got home. DD was told to go to her room. Just checked on her, she's fallen asleep and looking like a beautiful angel. We haven't spoken yet. Obviously I will apologise for the bad thing I said.

Think I'm going to cry now.

Massive x posting, sorry!

You are not a bad parent if you let your child cry. You are not a bad parent if a course of action leads your child to be annoyed about it and howl at you. You are not a bad parent if your child kicks off about a course of action she herself has chosen.

Yes I think even if you do the right thing, children won't always be accepting and happy about it. Sometimes there's nothing one can do. She was upset with the situation.

PS I don't thing wailing and tantrums will happen 'often' if you do things right, I think they'll happen sometimes, or less often perhaps. Some children are more prone than others, and then you have to factor in hunger/tiredness/coming down with something/child already unsettled by something else etc. And in your dd's case a failed plan!

Don't aim for a 100% success rate. I bet even Tanya Bryan's kids go mental at her sometimes!

sweetheart you need a reasuring hug and a dose self confidence

in your shoes i wouldve offered same choices and same responses

my dd2 is 8 at weekend and still has hissy fits now and again,mainly rustration/anger of tiredness.its no big deal as long as you remember you are the adult and you are in charge giving clear expectations and following through with consequences

she wont be at all "scarred" by the experience so dont fret over it

concentrate on the good part of the day and talk about how much fun you had.kids quickly forget "incidents" and dont dwell as much as grown ups

Poor you, what a rough day you've had!

Fwiw I think your approach of giving your child choices and listening to her is really nice and must surely be quite empowering for kids in the long run. Maybe though the pp is right that when she changed her mind mid running in the rain, you should have stuck to your guns and said no. You say you don't like your children being upset, so maybe it would help you to try and consciously let them be, ie saying 'I know you're upset about this, it must be really crap to have to go home, poor you etc'.

All that said, I don't have much experience of this in practice (I have one toddler). I try to give my DD choices and listen to her, but sometimes I do have to force her into the pushchair and wait for the wailing to stop (on a busy road when she won't hold my hand for example). I also get frustrated sometimes when she doesn't listen to reason and she is only two! I think it's a natural reaction, and the rain/wet situation can't have helped - I would have been stressed too.

It seems to me that you are are more concerned with your outburst than your DD's tantrum.

If that is the case I would go with Cogito's point of "the mythical idea". You went to the trouble of arranging and spending time and energy giving the DC a wonderful day out.
I think your tipping point was the perceived lack of appreciation from your DD, the ungrateful little wench..haha!
Try not to expect then you might not boil over IYSWIM.

Fwiw, my parenting approach is closer to yours than Cogito, each to their own and all that, I am more what she'd call "sell" than "tell" too. But you know what? I think in the situation you describe it was all fine, actually. Except for the fact you're beating yourself up about it rather than shrugging it off.

Worse things happen than being told to 'shut up', and it's a demonstration of the fact that people have limits. Yes, it's not ideal but it's not every day you shout that at her. You're trying too hard to be a "perfect" parent, which is a) setting yourself up to fail as no-one is and b) making you be too hard on yourself and c) setting an impossible example to your children in which you portray a role where your feelings/needs as a person are secondary to theirs, which is an unhealthy way to model parental relationships.

The situation you describe sounds similar to one I read elsewhere where the reason the child was upset is they didn't understand that decision X had consequence Y in any meaningful sense - and what you've given your daughter is a learning experience. You gave her the choice and she lived with the consequences of that choice and she will have got something from that. It is okay - even necessary - for your kids to be upset sometimes. If they learn from you that it's not okay to be upset, through either you never being visibly upset or through you going OTT to avoid them being upset, that then makes them less able to deal with challenges that life throws them as they will have this idea that being upset is a terrible, terrible thing rather than a part of life. I'll throw in a mention of the Happiness Trap which you might find worth a look on that front.

Oh this sort of thing can happen to anyone OP. Really.

The guilt too!

I found that though I am naturally a relaxed laid back sort of person, I have had to grow into my role as a parent and have learned (the hard way) that the best thing is to keep it simple : "no!" is only effective if the child knows that No means No, and that is it.

Don't explain too much, don't hand decision making power over to the kids (deep down they don't want it).

Rule like a benign dictator

...don't even offer choices. Just tell them what happens next.

liveinazoo I'm glad you would have done the same re choices.

posypoo I think your approach of giving your child choices and listening to her is really nice and must surely be quite empowering . . . thank you

mantlepiece It seems to me that you are are more concerned with your outburst than your DD's tantrum. . . . Yes that is exactly right. I didn't understand WHY she was reacting like that when she knew exactly what was going to happen! I was really confused! Perhaps if I had been expecting it then I would of been more prepared but it was so out of the blue to me because I didn't realise she was lying about being scared. I still don't understand how she didn't take it in when we decided we would go home. Seems bonkers to me. It was like she thought it just wouldn't happen, but she knows I don't back down so I don't understand where she got the idea.

All I can think is perhaps because she was so excited. She absolutely loves it when we go exploring, her whole face lights up so perhaps she wasn't thinking straight (as straight as a 6yo can anyway).

This is the thing . . .
I think my outbursts are extreme. I am pretty loud and probably pretty scary to a small child. I told her to shut up more then once, swore and called her a bad word (an unnacceptably bad word). I was angry, was holding her very firmly (perhaps too firmly) and was pulling her through the park. I even gave her a little whack on the arm which I had completely forgotten about until now (admittedly one that I doubt she even actually felt through her clothes, it was restrained, but it's the action that is important too not just the force). I really lost my temper. To my mind I feel as though it was borderline abusive and the thought makes me feel sick. If a woman posted that her husband had done that to their child, I can just imagine the responses!

Chateauneuf I think in the situation you describe it was all fine, actually. Except for the fact you're beating yourself up about it rather than shrugging it off. . . . Really? Even my losing my temper?

c) setting an impossible example to your children in which you portray a role where your feelings/needs as a person are secondary to theirs, which is an unhealthy way to model parental relationships. . . . can you explain more? How did I do that?

Anyway, yesterday when I woke her up she was still watery eyed and wobbly chinned which was horrible. My heart broke. She looked worried. We had a good long chat about it. She admitted that she had lied about being scared. I mentioned that I had said bad words and that some times people say them when they are angry but don't actually mean that. That they are horrible words and are not to be said. I told her how cross I am at her for lying, she said she didn't realise that pretending she was scared and then chosing to leave the park knowing full well she didn't intend to do that, was lying.

We chatted, had cuddles etc.

I told my DH what happened and he was mostly cross that I had called her that word. Or more "dissappointed" shall we say which is always somehow worse. I hate that he may feel like that about me but I don't blame him. I told him that you lot were helping me and what we had been talking about and he thought it sounded helpful.

I feel like a terrible mum. Not for my DD crying but because of my freak out back at her. I should be more controlled. If it was a one off or quite rare I would think that well these things happen but it's quite frequent to varying degrees. I am a shouter!

Everyone gets angry sometimes. You are not unreasonable to expect a 6 year old to tantrum less than a 2 year old but anyone can get angry enough to shout and scream. Under pressure even you did!

I think you weren't unreasonable to offer a choice and abide by her decision but unrealistic to assume that she wasn't capable of faking it and that she wouldn't be fickle and change her mind. All children will try their luck sometimes.

In your shoes I'd apologise for the bad language and shouting and explain why you were angry. I'd be expecting an apology from her too. Maybe you can both have a chat about other ways to express anger and disappointment. Either way, I would finish off with a reminder that she needs to accept what you say as law and that she needs to accept that she'd made the decision and should learn to live with it. I suspect that "scared" was kid-code for boring.

Sorry for the x-posting!
Glad to see you have made up . I hope you have fun together today.

I suspect that "scared" was kid-code for boring.

Yes! Personally I thought the bridge was cool! As did my little one.

I think in the situation you describe it was all fine, actually. Except for the fact you're beating yourself up about it rather than shrugging it off. . . . Really? Even my losing my temper?

Absolutely - everyone loses their temper sometimes. If your kids never see you losing your temper then you're not being 'real' and you are setting an unreasonable expectation/model of what people are like (and what they should try to be like by extension).

c) setting an impossible example to your children in which you portray a role where your feelings/needs as a person are secondary to theirs, which is an unhealthy way to model parental relationships. . . . can you explain more? How did I do that? Typing in haste so I hope this makes sense, but it follows on from the above really - it's okay to be cross, to show your kids you're getting frustrated. If you try and sacrifice your own feelings and emotions - irritation, frustration, all the 'negative ones' etc - because it's all-important that you keep your children happy then you're not being true to yourself and they will learn that it is 'bad' to have negative feelings, when negative feelings do have their place in the context of life. And by extension that they should bottle up all negative stuff too, which is obviously not healthy... 'depression is anger turned inwards' etc... They'll pick up on you 'playing a part' rather then being a 'real' person with the full emotional range and you're teaching them that to be a parent means sacrificing yourself to your kids, being a martyr and being miserable, and that it's okay for the parent to be unhappy/suppress their normal emotional response as long as the child is happy. Plus crucifying yourself after the event and making out to them that you've done a terrible thing by losing your temper tells them that it is a terrible thing to lose your temper - rather than merely human.

Obviously each situation could be handled differently with the benefit of hindsight - re the bridge thing, thinking about it has your daughter been reading Billy Goats Gruff or The Troll lately? If you wanted her to stay under the bridge then you could have tried turning it into a game and say why don't you all pretend to be trolls, on the lookout for goats? Playful Parenting is good for suggesting new approaches if you're getting locked into 'me vs them' loops.

Oh, I used an approach from playful parenting to help my toddler not be scared of having her hair washed... and it worked! It was basically pretending I was scared too. She still makes me pretend to be scared now to make her laugh. It gave me a confidence boost too. I am usually terrible at being playful!

glad you had cuddles and made up

Sorry, just returning to say that I actually think it was really brave of you to sit down with your DD and had a proper chat about it. Would have been so easy to have pretended it didn't happen a la many parents. At least you have now both expressed how you felt about it and listened to each other so that you can now move on.

Chateau. We play games like that sometimes but it doesn't come naturally. Have read playful parenting.

Im interested by what you say regarding it being ok to lose my temper. I feel i lose it too much though. I also feel a should be providing a calm environment. A friend of mine like that and she says how easy it is. She is different to me in a lot of ways though.

Posypoo. You think it was brave? That's nice. We always talk about things. I think its very important to talk and listen to each other.

Been following this thread with interest. It seems that the overarching 'theme' is about parents emotions vs child(rens) emotions and how to deal with situations where the two clash.

Im interested by what you say regarding it being ok to lose my temper. I feel i lose it too much though. I also feel a should be providing a calm environment. A friend of mine like that and she says how easy it is. She is different to me in a lot of ways though.

Could it be that because you feel you're supposed to be very calm and not express your emotions, that it just builds up until you snap at which point you 'lose it'? I always find that my temper is only explosive if I have denied my own feelings for too long and let the resentment/anger build up.

It might help, as soon as you start to feel frustrated/angry to just say that. "I am feeling very frustrated/angry/annoyed!!" So that feeling has an outlet and you don't become like a pressurecooker waiting to explode. That way you are also modelling to your kids that it's OK to have these feelings and you're showing a 'good' way of expressing them (i.e. it's preferable to say/shout "I am angry!" than to either have a tantrum or to direct the anger at someone "Shut up!").

Tantrums are tantrums, kids will have them. I think the main thing I'm getting from your posts here is that you'd like more control over your own 'tantrums' (as it were :)) so you can deal with your child's tantrums in a more stable way.

rrreow.

Yes spot on, id like more control. I also think you are right that keeping it in is making me EXPLODE!

I really like you idea of saying "I am angry". That may help me and also my children as just would act as a warning to them. Im definitely going to try that next time.

I was raised to keep my feelings in so it makes sense.

Thank you very much for being so insightful.

M DH would divorce me if I called one of his children a fucking bitch.