Do you use physical "force" to get a 2yo to do what needs to be done? What is the alternative? Help!

[Tricksterfrickster]

I have a lovely 2.1yo DD who is fantastic, if a little strong willed and stubborn, and once she has made up her mind she's not going to do something it's almost impossible to cajole her into changing her mind. I've read Playful Parenting and found it useful, but want to know what you do when all your resources have been used and you really need to get something done!

For example, when she refuses to brush her teeth, despite playing games/singing/ leaving it until later and coming back to it. Do you say you've had your chance to do it yourself and you didn't, so now I'm going to do it (with the undertone of whether you like it or not). Or when it's time to leave the house and put on coat and shoes, she likes to say "running away" and run away and then be as unhelpful as possible, despite reminders of where we're going. Even if we're going to the park and she's asked to go, she will then refuse to get ready to go! I normally end up frogmarching or picking her up and going, and once we're out she's fine, but I feel rubbish as to how we got there iyswim? One that's particularly bothering me is her refusing to get in a trolley at the supermarket, which she knows she has to do (as I've tried getting her to walk with me etc but again she runs away and into other peoples trollies etc) Yesterday I just put her in the trolley whilst she was crying about not wanting to and trying to get out, as I'd tried the explanation/distraction and it just wasn't working. But it's left me feeling really rubbish again.

I have spent most of my adult life working with older adults with dementia and would never physically "force" them to do something against their will, so it just doesn't sit right doing it with my toddler just because she's a child. Am I being too soft in thinking this? Or should I be trying harder to persuade her in situations like the above. I should add that my own upbringing has affected me a lot (as I'm sure everybody's does) but I was brought up with people shouting and losing their temper, with little patience, so am very anxious to not be like this. I do try to have as much patience as I can and make fun games out of boring tasks, but the above examples are just getting me down. I don't feel I have any relatives to ask as they are very old school and would say parents should "make" their children behave using physical force and smacking etc which is an opinion that I really don't agree with.

Sorry for the very long post, I'd be grateful for all views and suggestions as I'm feeling a bit lost in my own parenting skills at the moment.

I'm going to follow this thread with interest- I've not found any other way of getting my DD (1.9) to do these sorts of things if she sets her mind against it.

No suggestions but will be watching this thread closely. I'm having the same issue with my 2 yo. He won't brush his teeth voluntarily, and is now starting to refuse to get dressed/undressed. I hate forcing him but he can't just not brush his teeth at all!

I'm so glad I'm not alone, I feel better already! Thanks for joining me.... Hopefully we can get some tips to try and then see if they work for us!

DD can be the same; the majority of the time I stick with explaining and it seems to be paying off now (she's just 3). In terms of specifics; if she won't get dressed she doesn't go to the park - natural consequences really - although if it's just a coat/cardigan I take it and tell her I have it if she changes her mind (haven't had to try shoes yet but I think I'd do the same thing, she'd soon put them on I reckon...). Trolley - she gets to stand in the main bit until it's too full when she has to go in the seat, that was a negotiation - she seemed old enough to be part of the decision-making process. Teeth is really the only area in which I resort to "force" (for 1yo DS, DD is now ok) - it's non-negotiable for me so if they still won't do it with games and singing it's done for them.

So basically (and just my way, others may disagree), I use - natural consequences, allowing them to make their own decisions the majority of the time but allowing for mind-changing, and mutual agreements. It doesn't always work but it is doing more and more so sticking with it pays off.

Hope this makes sense...

Truthfully? When all things were said and done, all methods tried and the DCs were still being a pita about something that had to be done then I made them do it, even if that meant physically picking them up and doing it for them. Some things just can't be negotiated with a toddler but I must say that that doesn't mean an immediate jump to shouting and smacking! You can be resolute and firm without crossing that line.

I do for teeth brushing - that's non-negotiable in my book.

How about doing your shopping online, then you don't need to have the trolley battle?

With getting ready to go out, what would happen if you just got yourself ready and went? Would she keep running away or would she decide to go with you?

some things are not up for discussion: teeth, bed time, holding hands when crossing the road, car seat, sun cream, changing a poo nappy straight away, and a small handful of other things

but he has a LOT of choice in other things
I NEVER force him to kiss or hug anyone, I never force him to eat if he doesn't feel like it etc

Another watching with interest here :)

My DS 2.4 frequently wants to head his own way, and I do use force where I feel I have to. Ie steering him away or lifting him away from stuff, and I have had to push him into his car seat or grip his hand very tightly when he hasn't wanted to hold it, or pick him up to remove from a situation. I do give him plenty of opportunity to cooperate first, but some things just can't be negotiable can they? It's usually about his safety or about stopping something unacceptable.
I think the difference for me is in using force where something has to happen or be avoided, vs using force in anger or punishment. That for me is where the line is.

I'm in the same boat with my 21 month old DS. Have to hold down for nappies sometimes. Mostly I try to let the other stuff go and praise when he's good. Like you op I try a playful parenting approach and I'm not averse to the odd bit of bribery, DS will be a trolley angel if I give him a bread roll!! And will let me brush his teeth in the bath if he then gets to have more water in the bath. And will put his coat on if he gets a toy to take into the car....
Nappy times make me feel rubbish though. When i can distract with various toys he's fine, other times ou'd think i'd laid him down on hot coals.

I've read how to talk and think it'll be great later but he has no concept of consequence or others feelings yet of course.

I'm thinking of getting the 123 magic book to see if that helps, several people here seemed to rave about it.

Overall, I'm hoping it's another of those, this too shall pass moments.

I tried bribing her as, like you, I felt really bad wrestling with her. But it was a disaster, so I went back to manhandling her. I only ever had the problem getting her to leave the park, so we could focus on that one area.

I now have 3 yr old twins, one of whom is perfectly obedient, the other is wilful and stubborn. I hate being physical with one and not the other, but I just had to get over it and do it. Hopefully, she'll stop just like my eldest did.

Yup. We count 1,2,3 and if we ge to 3 and the child (we have twins, 2 1/2 yrs) then we do it for them (shoes, going upstairs, etc).

should have said - we very rarely get to '3' ! They usually decide to do it themselves.

I think it was '123 Magic' where the idea came from

I give DS (2.3) a choice for example, 'Either you walk up the stairs or Mummy will carry you up the stairs, I'm going to count to 5 and either you walk up the stairs or Mummy will carry you up the stairs'. Usually I get to 4 and he starts doing whatever it is. If I get to 5 then I will just get on and do it. DS is getting the idea I think, and I always follow through what I say I'll do.

I figure I'm not forcing him to do anything, he has the choice to do it or not.

Things I don't force are food, kissing people or waving goodbye.

Things that are never up for negotiation are holding hands near busy roads, going in his car seat (which so far he doesn't mind, although he does sometimes ask to drive), um can't think of anything else.

Yes, will physically force him into his car seat, or to get his nappy changed etc. However, what works well if he is refusing to do something is a count down. I'll say 'get in your car seat or mummy will put you in' then count 3, 2, 1 slowly and if he hasn't complied, it's '3,2,1 mummy will do it' then force him in. I've only had to actually do it a handful of times, now if I give an instruction and he's messing around, I just have to say 3.....2 and he will rush to do whatever it was. If he doesn't, I remind him between numbers that I'll be doing it if he doesn't and that usually sorts it.

I used to have to take the double buggy to the park as I could never get them to leave without manhandling them into it and strapping them down. There's a 16 month age gap and I used the double for much longer than necessary as it was the nobly way to get them from A to B.

Tooth brushing is non-negotiable. I tell them if they don't do it that I'm going to do it anyway and that they can't have a chocolate mousse (or whatever) next time they want one.

When DD1 used to run away (down our cul de sac towards the road) I'd catch her by the hair as opposed to her arm. Figured that if she was really running (at about 2.5) then catch her hair was more likely to be a short pain than potentially hurting her arm.

Definitely online shopping when they're going through a terrible phase at the supermarket.

If one of them wouldn't get out of the house to go to the park we wouldn't go, and if they won't put their jumper/coat on I just carry one if it's cold (as much for other parents to see I'm not totally inconsiderate as anything else, she very rarely puts it on)

Like other posters, I'd never force them to kiss or hug anyone, or force them to eat.

They're 3.5 and 4.5 now and generally much better. Well they're better at doing as they're asked, but loads worse at other things! It will pass...

I must just say that I still do the counting thing (although we go up to 5) and mine are now 8, 11 and 14 They laugh when I start (and I don't have to say it any more - hands goes up, fingers start going down...) but they still jump to it I have no idea what I'm going to do if they cotton onto the fact there's nothing planned for the for the end of the count...

With regards to pushchairs and car seats - if they did that arched back thing so you can't strap them in, I found tickling them helped - relieved the tension, plus they arch the other way which means you can quickly do the straps up whilst they're laughing.

It doesn't take long for them to get too big for force not to work. E.g. My 3 yo DD would take all her clothes off if you dressed her against her will.

Counting to 3 also worked for us, but not all the time. Ignoring the behaviour also worked.

Masses of patience and planning. E.g. If dressing is a problem, allow 30 mins for dressing, incentivise it (when you are dressed we can do x). We have also been known to arrive at nursery still in PJs and get dressed in the car park... Nappies - switch to pull ups if they won't lie down.

Yes I force on certain issues, car seat, shoes on, sitting down at the dinner table (although not the eating part), teeth brushing.

Otherwise you end up with a brat if they think they can get their own way all the time, plus you never get out of the house!

I have 2YO triplets and do the same as quite a few on here do - give them the choice, and then count to 3.
With the teeth brushing - we had to go through the stage of 'forcing' the brushing - it doesn't hurt them, but they had the choice of doing it nicely and declined.
With a lot of things, I try to give them options - shopping I will give the option of sitting in the trolley, or going on reigns. If for whatever reason I can't give a choice (in a rush) then I will count, or they just get stuffed in the seat! It makes it easier if you can give them 'lists' to cross things off with, or take some snacks etc.
FWIW, I'm not into the whole 'explaining' thing to a 2YO - they just don't understand the whole 'mummy wants you to come and get into the trolley because its dangerous having you running around the shop incase someone runs over your little feet, and then we would both be really sad wouldnt we?' - they stopped listening at 'mummy wants you...'. But if the trolley situation is the biggest trouble - just sit down and think of a few ideas to help. Get her to help you look through the cupboards for things to write on her list - she needs to help you point out the products in the shops. A large pot of raisins is brilliant for supermarkets - it takes them ages to eat them all!

With the 'going out' thing - my DD's do the same. If we're going to the park, and they suddenly refuse, thats fine - but I'm still going! I will ignore them and get my shoes and coat on and by the time I've opened the door to go without them, they are all hanging off my ankles begging me to help with shoes!

I totally agree with the smacking - I've not had to smack any of my triplets, and there have been many times that I've had 3 screaming toddlers refusing to get into carseats/trolleys/bath etc - but I choose not to hit my own children because I think its wrong .
I do think physical 'force' makes it sound a bit more harsher than it really is - there is no point being against smacking, but using such force whilst teethbrushing/getting into carseat that you are putting them through the same amount of pain.

Personally I think its all about giving them choices and boundaries - you can't let your children walk all over you, but its good for them to decide between 2 choices that you have given them.

My DS is 14mo and I do 'force' him to wear shoes, and sometimes I 'force' him to walk in the direction of our destination (instead of over the busy road, or round and round the pond, or over the bridge instead of in the sodding pond. Etc.). My golden rules are: only if it is necessary (and not for my convenience); always try other methods first; and when 'forcing' I explain what is going to happen (succinctly - '"I'm going to pick you up"), give a countdown, remain calm throughout (no furious shoving/ pulling/ jabbing DS into line); and most important IMO, I am compassionate about his inevitable distress so say, for eg. "you're very disappointed", "you don't want your shoes on" - I say these with real feeling for him.

I loathe seeing people telling already distressed children that they brought whatever it is on themselves - "I warned you...". It may be true, but in the middle of the upset is hardly the time to rub their noses in it - it's akin to someone saying 'I told you so!' which is deeply unstylish, at the very least. Sometimes, it is useful to help a child (or your best mate) to see that whatever upset they have experienced is a consequence of choices they made. But in the moment of their distress - when your child is crying (or when your BF has just discovered their deeply unsuitable boyf is cheating on them) is not the time. Slightly tangental rant over.

So long as you give the choice there is nothing wrong with resorting to physical force to get a job done. e.g. if you don't hold my hand to cross the road I shall have to carry you, 123 holding hands hooray or 123 no nonsense carry over with grumpy face on but same result.
If DD wriggles when I'm brushing her teeth I explain that if she wriggles it may hurt, so if she chooses to wriggle I'm sorry if it hurts/she gets upset.
In general using counting to 3 with an immediate consequence gets a result. The consequence needs to be immediate and relevant e.g. if you don't help me to dress you, I shall have to do it anyway which won't be fun - it's your choice 1,2,3. If used confidently and consistently it should mean that by 3 years you may need to count, but you won't have to use force.
Obviously use distraction, fun ways of doing things in the first instance, but sometimes things just have to be done and that's all there is to it.
The trolley one is a nuisance. Why doesn't she like going in the trolley? Does she scream the whole way round the shop or is it a trial scream to see if you'll give in? At the end of our shopping we often sit on (never pay!) the rides they have at supermarkets. If I am too grumpy as I've been screamed at then that wouldn't happen. Threats like this have to be used with caution though as if you use it up too early you'll have no ammo and a screaming child! So distract with getting her to remember a few items, ignore poor behaviour, talk about the fun things you're going to buy - milk! Such fun! put the thought in her head that you can't wait 'til the end of the shopping as you'll get to go on the rides so you'd better be quick "oh dear, you're moaning about sitting in the trolley, that's slowing me down. I do hope we won't be too slow to go on the ride..."

We had a hard time getting DD 2.5 to clean her teeth. Husband decided to give up and not bother asking her to clean her teeth anymore. But he would still stand in the bathroom and clean his own teeth whilst she had her bath. Then he started to rope in DD's favourite toy to help him clean his teeth. DD found it hilarious. Now her toy cleans her teeth. We manage twice a day, 5/6 strokes on each set of teeth and she spits out the excess paste and rinses.

Gave up using force and counting to 5 months ago and feel so much better for it. It never worked, it only raised my blood pressure and made me permanent bad cop. If she refuses to do something eg. get dressed, brush hair etc i walk away then try again 10 mins later. I also try tickling, a game or strike a deal "if we brush your hair we can play in the sandpit". Only use my firm headteacher voice in cases of seriousness eg. holding hand in traffic. Because i rarely use it she listens.

I do a mixture as well with my 18 month old. Teeth generally are ok if DH does his too. DS also runs away when I try to get him dressed but I try to leave plenty of time and we make it a bit of a game.

For nappies he seems ok if I sing a song but I have resorted to a weird mixture of force and tickling which I hope won't scar him for life/make him have domination fantasties when he's older.

With hand holding in car parks, by the road I say "you have to hold my hand because it's busy, but if you don't want to hold my hand you can be carried" - so he gets a choice. He loves walking so almost always chooses to walk holding my hand.

I also have a very stern voice that only comes out in times of danger, like when he stands on a chair (it could tip) or similar.

You can do physical force without hurting a child or getting angry. Imo it's more about how you do things and, as someone said, how often you resort to them. I find shouting is very effective if, say, resorted to once a year, but creates a miserable atmosphere if it is constant. Manhandling is a lot less stressful if you can manage to stay calm and brisk (well, dear, you're going in the trolley now, ooops-a-daisy). And then immediately distract her by talking about something else that she enjoys. It's much less stressful for both of you than 20 minutes spent desperately trying to persuade her.

I was brought up by calm but firm parents, so I used to feel fairly laidback about manhandling a recalcitrant toddler: I knew my parents had done this calmly and lovingly, so I saw no reason why my own actions shouldn't be in the same category. But appreciate that it is much harder if you don't feel comfortable about your own upbringing.

I don't think the comparison with elderly dementia sufferers holds water. With your patients, you only have to get through the day as safely as possible; you don't have to change them. With your toddler you do actually have the responsibility to modify her behaviour: she needs to learn from you what is acceptable and what is not. Otherwise, she will be at a disadvantage when she tries to mix with other children. It won't be very nice for her if it comes as a dreadful shock to her on her first day of school that adults can actually make you do things. The trick is to be like a good headteacher or boss: make it clear that you have authority over someone without making them feel bullied.

Tooth brushing: no sweet things until they brush their teeth.