Do you use physical "force" to get a 2yo to do what needs to be done? What is the alternative? Help!

[Tricksterfrickster]

I have a lovely 2.1yo DD who is fantastic, if a little strong willed and stubborn, and once she has made up her mind she's not going to do something it's almost impossible to cajole her into changing her mind. I've read Playful Parenting and found it useful, but want to know what you do when all your resources have been used and you really need to get something done!

For example, when she refuses to brush her teeth, despite playing games/singing/ leaving it until later and coming back to it. Do you say you've had your chance to do it yourself and you didn't, so now I'm going to do it (with the undertone of whether you like it or not). Or when it's time to leave the house and put on coat and shoes, she likes to say "running away" and run away and then be as unhelpful as possible, despite reminders of where we're going. Even if we're going to the park and she's asked to go, she will then refuse to get ready to go! I normally end up frogmarching or picking her up and going, and once we're out she's fine, but I feel rubbish as to how we got there iyswim? One that's particularly bothering me is her refusing to get in a trolley at the supermarket, which she knows she has to do (as I've tried getting her to walk with me etc but again she runs away and into other peoples trollies etc) Yesterday I just put her in the trolley whilst she was crying about not wanting to and trying to get out, as I'd tried the explanation/distraction and it just wasn't working. But it's left me feeling really rubbish again.

I have spent most of my adult life working with older adults with dementia and would never physically "force" them to do something against their will, so it just doesn't sit right doing it with my toddler just because she's a child. Am I being too soft in thinking this? Or should I be trying harder to persuade her in situations like the above. I should add that my own upbringing has affected me a lot (as I'm sure everybody's does) but I was brought up with people shouting and losing their temper, with little patience, so am very anxious to not be like this. I do try to have as much patience as I can and make fun games out of boring tasks, but the above examples are just getting me down. I don't feel I have any relatives to ask as they are very old school and would say parents should "make" their children behave using physical force and smacking etc which is an opinion that I really don't agree with.

Sorry for the very long post, I'd be grateful for all views and suggestions as I'm feeling a bit lost in my own parenting skills at the moment.

This brings back memories.
I used brute force when necessary to pin them down to change a nappy or get them into a car seat.
They are bigger than me now and don't remember

Really interesting example as I had a 15 minute tantrum the other day over teeth brushing and I know my partner would have given in. But IMO there are some things which I think are non-negotiable. I would have physically done it myself if her mouth hadn't been tightly clamped!

I try diversion, explaining (simply), using analogies which seem to work for us, e.g. Peppa Pig brushed her teeth didn't she, why don't you?. She also gets to choose e.g. clothes to wear, but only two choices - any more and I think they get confused.

123 doesn't work for us, she just says no and keeps her mouth tightly shut.

With teeth brushing, I don't bother. I give her the toothbrush and let her get on with it. If she doesn't brush her teeth for a day or two it's not the end of the world - we don't allow a lot of sugar in the diet so it's not a major concern for us.

For nappy changes, when she doesn't want to play ball, I "sit" on her with my bum on her chest, facing her feet, but make her laugh whilst I'm doing it so it doesn't seem like brute force. Obviously I hold my weight off her, I don't crush her into submission!

Clothing - non co-operation means her feet get tickled. She does love to run around with no clothes on so we let her have 5 minutes if necessary, again, not the end of the world.

In the supermarket I resort to bribery to put her in the trolley (bananas or hot cross buns), or use reins to keep her nearby. Usually she wants to 'help' so we just make sure we are never in a rush in the supermarket.

We were out once in a busy city and she got really upset in her pushchair. When I got down to her level I realised it was because it was very scary from her point of view, so I put her reins on and let her stand in the pushchair so she was higher up. The reins were held firmly by me so she was in no danger of falling. Sometimes when we, as parents, take time to find out what is causing the upset, a win-win solution presents itself.

The only thing that is completely non-negotiable is the car seat, but that has been non-negotiable since birth so we don't have a problem with it.

I think you have to use force, sometimes. But I try to not shout or get angry, and try to sympathise with dd's point of view.

Some things I wouldn't force, like eating (although I don't see how you could!) and also tooth brushing - mainly because this is something I really really don't want to become an issue. I do brush my teeth at the same time and don't even pressurise/persuade her, and I would say 9/10 she does a reasonable job. And sometimes lets me help!

I definitely believe that you can try and reason too much with a toddler - they aren't actually that reasonable a lot of time, and I think it can result in a toddler playing up because they want to involve you in a long conversation about whys and hows. I'm not patient enough but also I don't think it does the child any favours. And this is from someone who was all for unconditional parenting, before I actually had a toddler!

Marking my spot to come back and read later...I feel like quite a tough mummy though, with 3 DC's under 5 to get out with in time for the school run there are times when I do literately have to pick up my 2 year old and make him get dressed. No negotiation or explanation, just 'no, you are getting dressed!'

If I didn't force ds to do things we would never leave the house in the morning.

The teeth-brushing thing is difficult. Ds2 (23 months) refuses to have his teeth brushed, I've tried to turn it into a game but he just doesn't want to do it. At the moment he isn't brushing his teeth and I don't know how to change that.

Hi yes some things are non negotiable.. i would say we can do this the easy way or the hard way -meaning - and i know it sounds tough-its non negotiable or i would say its non negotiable.I heard somewhere that the reason toddlerrs are the size they are as decided by nature is so that they can be carried etc if needs be !! it may sound a load of tosh but i think that it helped me feel less guilt if i had to resort to that et c !!!

Thanks so much for all your replies, sorry it's taken me a while to come back and reply. Reading everybody else's scenarios where some force is needed has reassured me hugely that I'm not getting this hugely wrong, and am just doing what needs to be done! Some really useful suggestions too which I will try out. I like the sound of the 1 2 3 so will try that and see what response that gets.

Thanks Cory for your take on the difference between toddler and someone elderly, it really makes sense and has put into perspective that I have a job to do in teaching DD how to modify and develop her behaviours, not just manage them. That has shifted my thinking and has been really useful, so thank you.

oh I also physically restrain him against his protests so I can clip his finger nails

he has eczema, if he has finger nails he scratches it and it gets infected, then I have to use skin thinning steriods to clear it up.

clipping his fingernails against his consent is a lesser evil I think, and I always explain calmly what I'm doing and why.

My DD is exactly the same, she will be 2 in a month. Generally when she is being naughty like refusing to put her shoes on in the morning to take DS to nursery, genrally i will just pick her up put her in the pushchair with shoes in the back and start walking to nursery, often she will scream on the way but by the time we are there she is fine, then we pop her shoes on and she generally likes to go on DS scooter on the way home.

With the tooth brushing, she likes to do it herself (screams if anyone else does it), the only person who is allowed to do it is our babysitter (don't know why?) - so if she makes a fuss i will use a low-toned voice and say "Ivy i am going to clean your teeth, once i have done Herbies", so i do my son's and she sits their on the stool holding the brush in her fist tightly and i keep saying "Ivy give me the toothbrush please" in a low toned voice and eventually she gives it to me and we clean her teeth, sometimes i let her and her brother clean their own teeth and then i will count their teeth, they like this game but it takes a long time.

Yesterday Ivy was a nightmare, we were in John Lewis buying DS some new shoes and Ivy suddenly got up of the chair and ran over to the Lelli Kellys, she picked up a pair and started yelling "i want these" over and over again, i said "not today Ivy" trying to stay calm, quickly paid for DS shoes while she lay on the floor screaming and kicking her feet. Then i picked her up, put her over my shoulder, grabbed DS hands and marched out of the shop. Once we got to the car, i explained why her behaviour was naughty and that she would have to sit on the stairs for two minutes when we got home as a punishment and thats what we did. It's a tricky age.

Very interested in this thread as I have always felt uneasy about using force on DS but agree some things are non-negotiable.

For all those who are having tooth-brushing problems, DS was exactly the same until about 2 months ago - he is about to turn 3. We mostly had to hold him down and brush his teeth, which I hated doing. Lately I've been playing "dentist" with him where I am a dentist (usually in character: often Buzz Lightyear) and he lets me brush his teeth, even if if I do have to say "To infinity and beyond" a lot during the brushing... It's such a relief and makes me feel that the other flashpoints will change soon.

Hi
Haven't read all the responses so sorry if I m repeating anything already said.
Sorry to sound pedantic but the teeth brushing is a definate. Thing I wouldn't give in on. That said we ve never in or house had to physically force either dc s to get their teeth brushed.
It doesn't matter if they have sugar indiet or not (fruit and veg and milk contains lots of sugars anyway) they need to Lear the habit of teeth brushing. In our house they get to choose their tooth brushes regularly in the shop, and the toothpaste (child friendly one).
Then they can brush their teeth (sometimes we use egg timer for this, afterwards an adult checke over the brushing (ie dh or I get to brush them then)
Sometimes we pretend that mr or mrs toothbrush is taking to them (put on funny voice and say stuff like xxxxx have you been eating broccoli because there s some back here I can't reach.... Open wider ... Don't chomp on my head ouch... You get the drift....... It works well. There s generally no compromise on teeth. The day simply cannot progress until teeth are brushed. (my dsis is a dentist - she s tile us lots about the horrors of children needing early dental tx)
Otherwise giving choice - do you want to put your shoes or will I?
Also
Sometimes step
Back and let them do it or forgive it out for themselves - so what if they do it wrongly - it s worth it to see them nearly burst with pride over their efforts.
How to talk so kids will
Listen and how to
Listen so kids will talk .... Good book and Great for tips.
Playful parenting is nice too.

Apologies for typos and grammar mistakes - typing on phone with clumsy thumbs!

I agree with cory.
They are 2 yrs and you are the adult -you have been in the world a lot longer! Some things are non negotiable e.g. tooth brushing, sitting in a car seat, holding a hand and they will do it. There is no need to get cross-just quietly and firmly do it. I give them the choice first and probably count to 3 as a warning. They just take it as routine. They also feel secure-the adult is in charge and not letting a 2 yr old dictate-which is pretty scary for them!

I don't agree with smacking and you don't need to-or shout or be rough. Your whole body language tells them that 'this is what you do' and anything else is tiresome and boring. You are not going to have endless negotiations and discussion about something that is going to be done anyway. You simply can't leave teeth unbrushed-even if they don't eat much sugar.
Language is important-stay positive. Don't say 'if you don't put your shoes on we won't.......' say 'when you have put your shoes on we will.........' The first gives the idea they might not want to. Language is all important.

Where does everyone stand on taking medicine? It was one of my absolute non-negotables though always done gently, but in the early days it did involve an oral syringe, pinning DD's arms and gently keeping her mouth closed and stroking her throat, all with age appropriate negotiation first but in the end she took it wether she liked it or not.

She seems to have forgiven me and takes medicine without stress now except for post swallow bleurghs.

All my dc at two years old get 3,2,1. Then the naughty step. Then force depending on what it is. Brushing teeth, absolutely. But normally just a second of me doing it is enough for my youngest to take over out of the same toddler stubbornness that has him refuse in the first place!

Two is really for me the age when parents start to choose what is important to them.
Is it important to you that your child follows rules or that they are free-spiritied ?
Is it important to you that they question authority or that they are obedient?
If you know where your going with your own family values then the how to do it will flow - maybe take some time to yourself to plot out what traits you'd like to be really important in raising your family, you'll then find your own unique ways.
For example to us it is important that our children can grow, cook, and eat healthy meals - less important that they can sit nicely in a restaurant - so over the years we have got to a point where we don't go out to eat unless children activities are provided but we do have an allotment and host cooking classes for all the children in our hamlet.

It took me ages to cotton onto the idea of: giving a choice, without really giving a choice.
And to do it in a cheery voice, however narked you are:
"You either brush your teeth now, or you do it in 30 seconds/1 minute/5 minutes, whats it to be"?
Guess what. there is no choice. they end up brushing their teeth.

I think that you can get a happy medium RosemaryandTyme and it isn't a question of 'either or'!!

Of course they take medicine-there is no choice. DS3 would be dead aged 6 yrs if it had been negotiable!

You can be free spirited and still follow the general, essential rules that make for a pleasant society-other than 'I'm the only one that matters'.
They can certainly question authority but they need to listen to and process the replies and accept that a dentist knows more about healthy teeth than a 5 yr old!
They should be able to cook etc but also realise that you need to sit still in a restaurant and you can actually have a conversation-not have to play.
You want to raise a well balanced, sociable DC who people like and enjoy being with and not a selfish DC who thinks they are the only one who matters and can't sit and have a conversation with elderly ladies.
I don't see why you need 'naughty steps' to just do everyday, normal activities.

exoticfruits said "Of course they take medicine-there is no choice. DS3 would be dead aged 6 yrs if it had been negotiable!"

Two aquaintences considered me a monster of cruelty for making my 2yr old DD take medicine and continuing to insist.

I can't categorically say she would be dead without it but since her grandfather died of an asthma attack and asthma was the issue (anti-biotics, anti-histamines, various asthma meds over the years and paracetemol and ibuprofen to name the most common) I've never been prepared to risk it even if my DD would hate me for 5 minutes, 5 hours or forever.

She never actually hated me for more than 5 minutes.

Agree with exotic fruits

I agree with exotic fruits too .

You need to get them used to the idea that medicine is non negotiable. DS3 was very seriously ill, luckily he recovered, but he certainly had no choice so I was glad that he always knew from a young age that certain things had to be done. Putting drops in my 2 yr DSs eyes was no fun either-and very difficult on my own but again it was non negotiable.
It is ridiculous to treat a 2 yr old as if the are an adult. I should imagine that some might, justifiably, be annoyed in later years to have rotten teeth etc and say 'why on earth did you let me-you were the adult!'
I believe in reasoning and explaining but if they refuse to listen you just get on and do it.
I remember the thread about letting the DC decide- and he decided, aged 3 yrs, that he wasn't having his aeroplane seat belt on and the mother wouldn't make him and the crew were having to try. The whole thing was completely unnecessary-the mother just needed to say 'everyone wears their seat belt-YOU WILL have it on' and do it! (if he screamed-tough)