Unconditional parenting followers

[nappyaddict]

My question is about "punishment lite". Which of these are natural consequences and which are logical consequences? Which, if any, are acceptable to allow to happen?

If a child refuses to do things like wear a coat, hat, scarf and gloves when it is cold, I would take them with me so when he gets cold he will ask to put them on.

If he refuses to wear shoes, if his feet hurt he will ask to put them on.

If a child refuses to wear sun cream and sun hat then they have to stay in the shade or indoors.

If a child refuses or is slow to get ready for school, he will be late. This might mean he does not get to choose to play with his favourite toy when he gets there because another child may have chosen it first.

If they make a mess, then they have to help clear it up.

If they refuse to leave the park when asked, to walk nicely or keep running off, they will have to have reins put on or be put in the pushchair.

Thanks for reading.

I'd like to know if a choice is presented:

eg "you can choose: either have your reins put on to keep you safe, or you can walk nicely next to me?

where does that fit in?

Unconditional parenting is just a general approach really not a law about how to do everything.

I think you can do any of these things however you like. What you can't do is smack your kids or put them on the naughty step.

offering genuine choice is probably going to be a good thing for a child to experience, particularly when the choice is not overwhelming - and particularly if you are also open to giving proper and not perfunctory consideration for a third way which is the child's choice

Have you read the book EFA?

I've skimmed the chapter on punishment lite and it seems that AK doesn't really agree with natural and logical consequences. He just sees them as a gentler way of punishing the child. Here on page 51

That's an interesting point EFA.I'm not following UP, but I!' it seems to get

The whole chapter is page 37-53.

I've never read this or even heard of it but it sounds exactly like my approach to parenting. I like to think that as a result I have two sensible teenagers who can think for themselves and don't expect me to do everything or them. I have 3 young children as well and obviously you tailor it to their age. My almost one year old will obviously wear a coat when it's cold. But my 22 month old will occasionally refuse and I'll take it with us if I think she'll get cold. If its freezing though, I'll still insist she wears it.

My 8 year old knows if she messes around she will be late for school. She doesn't like being late so doesn't mess around!

Another one is messing about at meal times.

If a child messes about eating their dinner, it will go cold and they will have to help heat it up.

If they refuse to eat their dinner, they will get hungry and have to help make a snack later.

Sorry posted too soon, pesky iphone. I'm not following UP (well, I haven't read the book), but I have lurked on a few threads and think it is very interesting approach. I would like my DS to grow up and not feel he has to worry about living up to particular expectations . I get the idea about no smacking or naughty steps, but gosh it's so hard when you need them to do something. Interesting examples nappy, it's given me some ideas

I have read the book but a long time ago nappy - thanks for the link.

Your post asks too many questions with too little background info to be easy to answer really.

Like about choosing not to wear a coat - if the child is not old enough to properly understand that they will be cold later on then I would say it is definitely right to take their coat with you.

For my 12 year old who doesn't want to wear hers to school I might say to her that I think she will be cold later but I leave the decision to her. And sometimes she even does wear her coat.

Anything that sounds like "teaching them a lesson" probably isn't going to be a nice way to treat your child imo and AK seems to be saying that you need to think very carefully about exactly what that lesson is that you are teaching them as it may not be the same lesson that you actually want them to learn.

Mary I think lots of the time the idea of UP is that you think twice about whether you "want" your children to behave a certain way rather than if you "need" them to. So lots of parents would want a child to wear their coat but it's often not actually essential that they do. Unless you are in the arctic circle where even an UP wouldn't be taking a child out without a coat, unless they wore blankets instead or someone else's coat maybe

So there are no hard and fast rules, just guiding principles, that's my take on UP.

"Which, if any, are acceptable to allow to happen?"

I would call myself an Unconditional Parent if I had any friends who wouldn't laugh and call me a wanker, and this is what I do in these situations:

If a child refuses to do things like wear a coat, hat, scarf and gloves when it is cold, I would take them with me so when he gets cold he will ask to put them on.

• I do this with my 3 year old. We discuss before going out, either wearing or bringing with us.

If he refuses to wear shoes, if his feet hurt he will ask to put them on.

• I do this, again, telling him I have the shoes in the bag, reminding him they're there if he looks uncomfortable while we're out.

If a child refuses to wear sun cream and sun hat then they have to stay in the shade or indoors.

• I don't worry about this too much as I want him to get vit D & he never seems to want to spend too long in the brightest sunshine. But I would make a game of chasing him with a squirty suncream if I felt he needed it & he didn't want to cover up.

If a child refuses or is slow to get ready for school, he will be late. This might mean he does not get to choose to play with his favourite toy when he gets there because another child may have chosen it first.

• I talk to him about why he doesn't want to go & address that; if he does want to go but is getting distracted we set stopwatches and alarms for e.g. getting shoes & socks and coat on, getting stuff into bag.

If they make a mess, then they have to help clear it up.

• I say, Let's clear this up, and throw him a cloth/bag/pass him the hoover. Sometimes he ignores me and I clear up on my own whilst talking about how it's much more fun when we do it together.

If they refuse to leave the park when asked, to walk nicely or keep running off, they will have to have reins put on or be put in the pushchair.

• I don't do reins or compulsory pushchair. I do negotiation and persuading and waiting. And understand totally why some people think I'm insane for that. For me, it's worth it because I don't want to force my son. On the rare occasion we really have to go NOW - we're picking up another child or whatever - I am more insistent and effectively I bully/force him to do what I want. I try to stay calm and not sound exasperated but don't always manage this. What works best for me is finding an option that takes us away from our conflict, something like 'Look! Was that an elephant just went past? Let's follow it - I'll be your elephant and you can ride on my shoulders' - he knows it's a ploy, but if it sounds fun enough he'll go along with it and we both get what we want: him - fun with me, me: to get to the appointment/whatever.

Marking my place - I have to go out but will reply later as I have some very clear boundaries for myself about any kind of punishment type thing :)

MAvis you are so not a wanker
re the elephant bit, I seem to remember that AK is not a fan of distraction techniques?

I can't find much about AK and distraction techniques. Does anyone know which book/chapter this is talked about?

I think it's true he's not a fan of distraction, and distraction can be so rude - a child's saying No, I'd like to stay in the park, and their parent yells Aeroplane! and tries to whisk them away.

It's hard to describe what I mean. Often me and my son get in this situation where I want to do a task/be somewhere else and he wants to continue having fun doing what he's doing. Best case scenario, I get involved with what he's doing as genuinely as I can (his interests often bore me) and then when we're connected, remind him I want to do/go X, and suggest that maybe Action Chugger/the big monsters/Lightning McQueen could lead the way.

Usual scenario, I forget/don't bother to get that involved before saying Let's go now - half the time he's fine with that. The other half, I often forget and get into a Yes we are/No don't want to conflict. This will have no winners: both he and I believe we should have the final say. If we carry on I will end up getting my way while teaching him that bigger/stronger people overpower/bully smaller/weaker ones. I'm sure he recognises this dynamic when I do: we both want a way out. But he has pride; it must be a way out that saves face. And as I'm the one with the experience/verbal skills/the one we both know will 'win' anyway, it's down to me to offer an alternative way out if the situation. If he's seriously pissed off, the elephant suggestion earns me a withering look and no cooperation. Then I need to come up with maybe three suggestions before he'll acquiesce, but then, 2 mins later, we're in the middle of our new game, on the way to where I want us to be, all good feelings (sometimes I'm feeling a bit knackered/frazzled by this point actually, 'he doesn't know how good he's got it' type stuff in my head. But it's a lot less hassle and feels a lot better than forcing him and the fallout from that.)

Oh sorry, on phone, did crappy paragraphs

This is all with it to me, because my parents were extremely disrespectful to me. They had extremely horrific childhoods and did the best they could, but that wasn't good enough, sadly for all of us. So I don't know how to do 'normal' coercion/limited conditionality that will probably be fine. My 'template' is for irritation, Do It Because I Said So, the ever-present threat of violence etc.
My husband is far more normal and, though he treats our son 95% the same/more patiently than I do, he also negotiates less/when he does he's firmer - and our son responds well to this.

worth it to me

MavisG I wish my mum had been more like you!

I agree with your comments on distraction - it can be rude and dissmissive but like all of this it does depend on the exact context and situation as to whether what you do is really "distraction" and whether it is disrespectful or not to your child.

I had a similar experience of childhood to the one you describe - and my mother had a very emtionally abusive childhood herself. I have reacted similarly to you in how I choose to be with my own dd. How is your relationship with your parents now? HAve you forgiven them?

I think there definitely are times for no negotiation - but that these times for me are actually far more rare than most parents would decide that they should be.

For me it's all about taking the time to see the child's point of view and not to assume that you know what this is without asking the child, and then to respect that point of view and to empathise with it. And then to work with it as far as you can.

All I really want is for my child to respect other people and herself and I want to role model this for her.

My dd is now 12 and I am generally happy with how this approach has worked for us so far.

Ooh, brilliant, EFA! I love to hear from parents of older children who've followed a gentle/respectful route. It helps me deal with the fears we might be raising a brat - even though he's not brattish so far.

With my parents, I don't think in terms of forgiveness. They are so damaged by their experiences, I can see the children they were. And their parents had utterly horrendous - and short - lives. They did their best. My mum acknowledges it wasn't enough. She is much gentler with her grandchildren. I don't leave my son alone with her when she's tired or stressed and never when my dad's around, which I'm sure they notice, but we certainly don't address most things head on - we are making the best of life on a carpet lumpy with stuff swept under it, but for me that's ok. The way they treated me isn't forgivable, I guess, but neither could I really blame them for it. They didn't have the tools or the support or the experience to do better than they did - which was a lot better than what they got.

(I don't spend much time with them or try to get close to them/seek the parents I wish they'd been. I did used to; it was pointless and did make me angry/blame-focussed)

And sorry, nappyaddict, this is a bit of a tangent!

Yes apologies from me too for the tangent.

MavisG I think brattishness is a disrespect for others which really isn't how you are bringing up your child.

I do think that some people will think bringing up your child like this is a mistake and happily tell you so ( like my mum!) but it has very much worked for me. There is one big exception for my dd which is around eating. She was beyond fussy as a youngster and probably had one of her five a day at best. She has improved on this although still not great, and I feel guilty that I didn't find a way to overcome this earlier. Also I didn't stop her thumb sucking and she has had to wear braces to realign her jaw... This might have been avoided had I successfully dealt with the thumb. How old is your ds?