Zero tolerance approach to bullying sibling??

[DrFish]

Looking for advice here. I have 2 dcs - DS(8) and DD(6). Ever since DD was born, DS has not liked her and done some very nasty things to her. I assume he is very jealous. When she started to crawl he would pull her feet so she couldn't move, and hold her ankles when she tried to walk.

This has got worse and worse over the years, to the point where he now will not even sit next to her or touch something she has just touched, and he will start shrieking if she looks at him. He still does all the nasty things too - today he deliberately tried to make her fall off a swing. Luckily she managed to hold on. He does these things with a look of delight on his face. I think he really wants to hurt her.

I am so worn down by all of this and feel I can't leave them alone together for fear of what DS might do. I realise this sounds like the Horrid Henry/Perfect Peter scenario, but honestly, DD does not provoke him or intentionally annoy him. I sense she is starting to figure out that if she cries then DS might get into trouble, so I try to ignore her if I think that is happening. But usually I have seen him do something.

I have been trying to ignore small fights and leave them, but now I feel this has gone too far and I wonder if a zero tolerance approach is needed? When he tried to make her fall off the swing, I told him he would not be getting one of the muffins I baked after school, but DD would, because he was so mean to her. Last week I cancelled a playdate because he went into her room and deliberately smashed up the lego she was building. I asked him why he did that and he said he was walking past and just thought how horrible she was so he did it. He has never apologised, for anything.

Would really appreciate advice. Thanks.

Are you absolutely sure that she does nothing to provoke him?

Poor you though... it sounds awful.

She doesn't do anything intentionally. He just seems to find everything she does immensely irritating. I understand that sisters can be annoying, but he can't go around hurting her and constantly trying to ruin everything she does. DD is a laid-back soul whereas DS is full-on, quite highly strung. I can't force them to get along but I can't let him bully her anymore. I feel sorry for her, although she seems fine, when he's leaving her alone.

I can sort of relate to this, it sounds a lot like the relationship I had with my Sister growing up (I'm the eldest).

I don't recall ever getting on with her, I couldn't stand to be near her, and by the time I was about 7 I wouldn't even sit next to her. This was never addressed by our parents and now as adults we have a very strained relationship and have had a lot of terrible arguments in the past.

What my Sister says is that she feels like I hated her for as long as she can remember, and she doesn't recall doing anything wrong.

From my perspective I remember being constantly reprimanded. Everything was my fault and it made me very angry towards my Sister (who in my parents eyes seemingly could do no wrong).

What I'm saying is that while you obviously can't let bullying go unpunished, be careful not to label their relationship too early on - it may cause more problems later on.

What you said about him pulling her legs when crawling/walking - I'm assuming he would have been just 3 when this happened? Far too young to be doing things deliberately I think, and was probably just jealous.

(I may be personalising this just a tiny bit )

Sorry if that is rambling, but I hope it helps.

Yes that's exactly right, I don't want to make the situation worse than it is. I can imagine that by coming down hard on the bullying (which I feel I should do as it's got very out of control) I will make DS even more resentful of DD. However, like you say, he can't treat her like that, which is why I really don't know what to do.

I try very hard to praise DS for kindness shown to other children, which is not hard really, he is lovely with other kids younger than him, it's only DD he can't stand. I also make sure he sees that DD gets told off when necessary.

I can see how awful that would be to remember being told off all the time - what would you rather your parents had done?

I wish they'd told my Sister off sometimes tbh - I NEVER saw it happening. If we were fighting they'd blame me as I was the eldest and 'should know better' and I remember getting very annoyed at it and loving being at school at 5 because I was away from it (god, how bloody awful is that!)

All she remembers from childhood is me hating her :(

Is there any way you can spend some time with DS, just you and him? On top of the praising for good behaviour I think it would really help.

Its interesting to see how you phrase things - you talk about your DS pulling at your DD's legs and talk about how nasty that was - but when you talk about your DD you say 'she doesn't do anything intentionally'.

I do think he did it intentionally though - he was 3 almost 4 and knew fine that it was not nice. He did it lots of times and had that "look" on his face!

I have never seen DD deliberately hurt her brother. Crikey, if she did he would be the first to tell me. She can be naughty, yes, and I watch them carefully so I can get the most accurate picture of what happened, and it is honestly very one-sided.

The funny thing is that if DS were to be kind to her and invite her to play with him, she would be there like a shot. It makes me so sad both to think of her feeling constantly hated by him, and to think of DS feeling that we somehow prefer his sister. We tell him all the time how much we love him.

He enjoys time away from DD, with me/DH or with friends, but most of the time we have to all be together and that's life.

Age 8 I think you've left yourself a mountain to climb. If he's been like this with her from birth, that's a big bad habit you've got to crack. You do have to come down on him hard now because a) it's entrenched and b) he's a lot older. If he knows he's been behaving badly (which he clearly does), he has no valid grounds to be resentful. If you do nothing OTOH, things will not only not improve but your DD will grow up thinking she is #2 in her parents' affections. She may even find she ends up in other abusive relationships in the future.

Yes you have to crack down now. Every time. For every little thing. But couple it with trying not to go overboard on comforting your DD and as much one to one time with your DS as you can manage.

Oh it's so hard to get the balance right isn't it? We haven't been letting DS get away with his behaviour in the past, but I've tried to ignore the small stuff as I know a certain amount of sibling fighting is normal (although I'm an only child, what do I know...). However this isn't squabbling as such, it's become a hate campaign, which is why I feel a stronger approach is now called for. I wonder why he is so jealous?

If I talk to him about it, he denies ever doing anything to DD, says she makes it up and we believe her because we like her more than him because he has an ugly face.

aww, poor kid :(

It sounds awful, poor you.
Have you read siblings without rivalry? It gave me a lot of insight into how my 2 interact, and strategies to help them at least try and get along.

There's one story in there from what I remember about an older sister who was always incredibly nasty to the younger one, and her mother sat and listened one day to all the grievances she had against the younger one, then found them that night fast asleep with the older one cuddling the younger!

Does your ds get an opportunity to express how and why he dislikes your dd?

Maybe if he has a safe way to vent his feelings he won't need to act on them?

Hmmm, what do I know, I'm no psychologist, but do read the book!

What Fishlegs said - definitely.... that would have helped me an awful lot!

A key message here is that when he was 3 you saw him as capable of being deliberatly mean, and now she is the same age or a bit older she is still being seen as the defencless little one. That would make one v resentful (not that I am projecting or anything!).

Mine are a lot smaller than yours but I have been trying to teach the older one to ask me to take the younger one away if she is being annoying, rather than hurting her. Sometimes DD2 just gets in DD1's space a bit and DD1 doesn't know how to get away so she lashes out.

The other piece of advice I've seen on here is to tell the older one how much the younger one loves her, how clever she thinks she is etc etc.

I am pretty zero-tolerance on anything malicious or violent if I've seen it myself, but if I haven't then I don't feel I can punish it so I just separate them for a bit.

It's indeed a very good idea Fishlegs (good name!), just to let him talk without trying to fix anything. I will try that.

I have that book, I sort of liked it but found it a little tedious in parts. I will dig it out and have another look though.

tardi I don't see her as defenceless (she is pretty good at standing up to him) but she does not do malicious things to him.

tardis I mean, sorry, typing too fast.

agree with tardis too (though I most definitely am projecting )

I'm another older sibling who loathes younger sibling (who loathes me back!). we turn 28/30 in a couple of weeks and still avoid each other as best we can.

As kids, she was always praised for everything, and I was CONSTANTLY chastised, could do no right, and so resorted to hitting her/biting/sniping all the time.

I still resent her for it tbh. I was ALWAYS told 'you're older, you should know better', and 'you're the older one, she can't help it' when she had done something absurd and annoying. We are totally opposing personalities too, which doesn't help.

Not sure what advice I'd give, but listening to your DS would probably be a first port of call. I was ignored from the day sister came home from the hospital (so far as I can remember :o my memory is shite though, so who knows what the reality was - but my overriding memory of childhood was of being ignored or told off because she was more important).

Do you compare them to each other in their hearing? that used to piss me off no end - 'oh, Kveta, why can't you be as nice/quiet/calm as your sister?' and then if I did well at school it was 'oh, don't talk about it in front of your sister, she is younger than you and you always get to do things first'/ (incidentally, when I was pg with DS, and told my sister, her first words were not congratulations, but 'why do you get to find a man and have a baby before me? wah wah wah' And now I am pg a second time she said 'hope it's not a girl, I want to have a girl before you'. It's a girl...). Anyway, don't compare them to each other please!!

(oh, my sis has some medical problems too, which didn't help, as parents had to give her more attention, naturally. But as a 6 year old, I didn't understand this at all!)

Thanks for replying Kveta.

I really hope we gave DS enough attention when DD was born - it's all a blur now but either way I do feel guilty that I might have triggered the jealousy somehow. I would never compare tham outloud, and try not to even in my head. They have very different personalities, but that shouldn't mean they don't get along. There's obviously so much resentment there, and I will make more time for listening to DS.

Hard one.

Have you tried concentrating on getting them to have fun together. Maybe if the problem lies with the oldest - do something he might enjoy? Maybe introduce a weekly treat that one chooses for the other? So your son learns the benefits of being kind to his sister.

I much prefer my kids to unite against me - than against each other. I hear them out when they argue. The process of listening (even when I'm pretty sure I know who's in the wrong) seems to take some of the sting out of their rows.

Also, I give them a lot of space from each other, especially when they have friends round.

Wanted to add, its my youngest who is the most jealous.

how about doing things with them both which makes them a team...? they have to work with each other to get a job done etc...maybe even against mum and dad.

I think the more he can see is sister as a friend (maybe) he may start to like what/who she is!

How about an obstacle race with teams? Board games? swimming races? bike races? something where he needs her to be able to win - i'm sure more MNetters have ideas on this kind of thing.

I do think you need to be involved with them in daily activites together, where each one can how to behave with each other with you showing them, little things like maybe playing cards but show DS you are focused still on them and HIM with little tickling of him and blowing of raspberries, praises to each of them and getting them to priase eachother. If he's in a good mood he should be more reseptive to your daughter and maybe she could join in with the tickling with your guidance and eventually vice versa.

Hope this may help, everyone seems to be focussing on the problem rather than trying to come up with a solution. i don't think punishing them (him) is always the answer unless he has physically hurt her, but you need to look at there wider picture and what best to do to get two people to get along :)

agree with daytoday :)