low self-esteem, self-harming and punishment

[TravellerForEver]

OK I need some help to disciple ds1 who 8yo.
He is a very intelligent boy, well ahead of his peers academically but he has self-esteem issues.
He also has this habit of 'self-harming' for a better word (he is bitting his knee or hand, no blood but very very clear marks from his teeth) when under pressure, for example when he is being told off or when things don't go as he would like them to.

Tonight, after numerous warnings, being told to behave properly at the table etc..., I sent him to bed wo watching a DVD which the dcs normally do for about half an hour).
Cue for some screaming, crying, him bitting himself and screaming 'I am stupid, I am the most stupid person in the world'. The issue here is that he actually believes he is missing out on something because he was stupid as a person, not because his behaviour at that time wasn't appropriate (or stupid).
This went on for half an hour, until dc2 went to bed.

So how can I actually discipline him wo making him think this is a reflection on who he is as a person?
Tonight was exceptional but this is a common reaction from him albeit at a smaller degree.

discipline not disciple....

bump for anyone who has some ideas.

How do you tell him his behaviour is unacceptable?

What exactly did you say to let him know he wasnt behaving well at the table?

Have you sat down and talked to him telling him what you've written here?

He needs to be told in a calm way that when he does things that are inappropriate or doesn't listen to you, then you have to do things like take priviledges away. It's not because he is stupid or naughty and you always love him no matter what. And tell him some good points about himself like you think he's kind and polite etc....

At 8, you should be able to explain that and have him understand.

I'd probably also get him to talk about about what he thinks is good about himself and using some positive affirmations.

In between punishments he needs lots of praise to raise his self esteem.

Oh, your poor boy; he sounds confused and unhappy, and very anxious. How come his self esteem is so poor - has he been bullied or anything?

How do you 'discipline' him? I'd say that with a child like him it is very very important to make it clear to him that it is the behaviour and not him that you do not like e.g. "I love you darling but 'x' (insert actual behaviour here) is not ok. Please stop doing it. If you carry on you will have to go to your room until dinner time (or whatever)". Make sure he gets lots of praise and positive attention in between.

Read 'The Incredible Years' book - it's brilliant for helping a child with low self esteem and how to apply boundaries etc - here

How is he at school? Is he happy? Everything going ok?

If he carries on as unhappy as this please get some help for him. He is at risk of emotional health problems later on if he carries on feeling so bad. Talk to his school - there may be a school counsellor he could talk to, or if you are worried particularly if the self-hating statements continue or you are worried re self harm, talk to your GP and request a referral to CAMHS.

And remember to give him lots of love and hugs. Best wishes.

NotJustClassic - that's a great book.

Thanks everyone.
I love the book 'How to listen' too and that's the one I usually back on to with Unconditional parenting. So not a lot of punishment in our house and a lot of explaining/talking.

H however has been putting him down a lot when telling him off. I believe this is where it's all coming from (due to some comments from ds1 'Daddy tells me I am stupid' :().

I do try and praise him as much as possible. But even if I tell him something like 'Good night my fantastic little boy' I get a 'No I am not fantastic, I am stupid'. There are these 2 sides of him, the very confident child who is happy to try and do lots of things, manages very well at school and in some way very sure of himself. And then underneath, the child that thinks he is worth very little.
TBH the thing that worries me a lot is the bitting (and the fact he has this habit of hitting hs head with his hands he is told that he is doing something wrong).

Oh btw cyb what happened last night went on like this.
ds1 singing, dancing on his chair, just being a clown
Me : ds1 can you sit nicely please?
ds1 stops for about 2 seconds and then starts again (repeat that a couple of times)
me counting to 3 (usually a sign that the limits have been reached and enough to calm everyone)
ds1 looks at me and carries on
Me: ds1 could you sit nicely? If I have to tell you this again you will to your bedroom now.
ds1 looks at me carries on albiet to a lesser extend
Me: ds1 could you go to your bedroom, tidy up your toys and go to bed now?

bump

H reading the book?!? That's not going to happen sorry. And despite numerous conversations about it, he is still oputting the dcs down when he tries to discipline them :(:(

I think you also misenderstood me re the way I handle the dcs.
The praise I give is always linked to something specific (like I like the way you have written this because xxx).
I wasn't trying to praise ds1 by saying my fantastic little boy. It's just the way I can express my love to him, the same than you would say 'darling' or whatever (note the dcs are bilingual and I do not speak in english to them. So the translation probably doesn't reflect either the tone or associated meaning with it)

You also have to put yesterday incident into context. This is an everyday issue (the being a clown at the table). The explaining (disturb everyone etc..) has been done numerous times. So has the problem solving with both of them, proposing a choice to the child (you sit correctly or you will go to your bedroom). All of which are possible ways to handle that sort of situation according to HTT.

Saying that reading the book again is always a good idea for everybody. I've learnt that each time I read it, I take something else out of it and I discover another way to do things.

As a teacher we use language of choice. You can choose to behave ...and ... will happen or do ... and then this will happen. Deep breath and stay calm! I never send mine to his bedroom as I want him to play and sleep there! I always have a consequence (not a punishment) such as losing privilege. I would only ever give one warning and I never use the count to three thing. What are you counting to? What will happen? Agree praise is important. Never phrase instruction as question. I want you to sit down properly on your chair. The harming thing sounds to me like an attempt to stop you punishing. Don't be distracted!

YOu know I have no idea what they think will happen when I count to 3. I've never said 'If at 3, you haven't done X, then Y will happen'
If I do arrive at 3, I usually end up going to them and directing them into doing what they are supposed to (like taking them by the hand to go to bed). Nothing else. I think it has become like a key word really saying 'Stop, you are going too far' iyswim.

The more I think about it, the less I think I have actually really given a proper transcript of the way I speaked to ds. I was thinking about the way I phrase things to him and it would probably be more 'ds1, sit properly please' or 'fork' or sometimes just 'hum'.

I don't think the harming is a way to stop punishment because I hardly use punishment or removal of privileges. In my eyes there are no privileges, more things that they can do. He does do that when under pressure too, not linked with punishment.

Re the praise thing, it can be difficult to praise someone who desn't want to hear praise. ds1 asked me the other day what I thought of his poster he did for school, I said 'Great. I like the way you represented it with blablabla. I really like to colours there because xxx. And you what do you think?'
'I don't think it's good. All my sentences are starting with 'I can see' - then he added another 2 things that were wrong'. I hadn't even noticed any of the things he mentioned! He then showed the poster to his teacher who said it was the best of the class. Unsurprisingly. He seems to have no idea how good his work is and always finds things that are wrong with it.
I feel this is the same when I teach him not to do something (don't like the word discipline tbh). It's like as soon as I tell him of, even in a small way, he falls back into a way of looking at the word where he is supposed to be perfect and nothing else other than perfection is acceptable.

Are there tensions in your marriage, OP? You don't refer to your husband as DH and reading between the lines it seems you don't agree on parenting approaches.

Big problems, one of them is the way H is parenting them.
Which is probably the real root cause of the dcs misbehaving at the table.

However, whatever damage has been done because of that, I want to find a way to raise ds1 self-esteem, ensure he isn't thinking self harm is a way to handle his stress and find ways for me to educate him and tell him not do some things wo him collapsing like this.

What does family counselling nvolves? Is it similar to counselling and would do the children attend too?

Then not that I'm any expert in raising kids whilst dealing with marital problems, but I'd say that reading or re-reading parenting books aren't really going to make much impression. I'd say for the discipline thing just keep on being consistent.
How honest do you think you can be with your DS? Could you say to him that you know it seems like you and Daddy often appear to want different things from him, and that must make him feel very confused, but this isn't his fault or because he is stupid, but because grown-ups sometimes find it very hard to agree on things? Can you try to find some safe substitute outlet for the biting, though I don't know what to suggest for that?
Do you mind my asking what you are doing about the marital problems?

play therapy is often great for working out how children are rationalising behaviours in their heads and coming up with alternatives (and particularly good for self esteem issues, self harm and kids who threaten suicide). it'll cost you, though.

i'm not absolutely sure that 'discipline' is the right response to self-harm. and my parenting style is slightly to the right of attilla the hun.

what does dh say about the self harm and low self esteem?

yes I agree with you. I am really trying to figure out how to talk to ds1 so I can convey what is OK and not OK to do wo taking him somewhere the stress is so high he can't handle it.
I really didn't think yesterday was one these situations.

H doesn't say a thing about it. But it is his standard response to anything that isn't quite right. If I was pressing him, he would probably either say I am seeing problems where there aren't any (as bitting yourself isn't self-harming) or that he doesn't know.
It is quite reassuring and :( that none has yet queried why I am using this word.

Thank you all. I actually ahve quite a few things to digest here.
Really need to think about it more before doing anything.

You are not going to be able to raise your son's self esteem while his father continues to shoot it down. This needs to be addressed properly one way or another - and soon. It is damaging your son emotionally........ If you fail to act to stop it happening completely then you are part of it too, sorry.