Worried I've let dd (4) have her own way too much.

[alittleteapot]

She's always been super energetic and very demanding, until recently didn't have any inclination to play independently. Always (from tiny baby) very opinionated and quite needy of my time. I'm pretty consistent about lots of things: sugary foods and crisps, telly only at certain times, but in other ways I've always used the reason with her approach - partly cos it seemed like all that worked as well as my natural way. e.g. well it's up to you - you can go out with dirty teeth or clean teeth (always caves and brushes teeth.) But just watched her bossing around another adult and suddenly felt horrified that she's allowed to be in charge too much. Is it too late to get a bit stricter? She's just started school and is blooming at the structure and discipline that comes with it. Is it too late to have a bit more of this at home??? One of the things is endless let's pretend games in which she tells people what to say or do. I've explained it needs to be a two way thing and she does now say "you can say whatever you want." but it's impossible to say no to anything and her just accept it without a long fight. It's exhausting and I'm bit worried is my fault. I guess part of it is just being a bright four year old girl and I don't want to crush her confidence, but...

There's a difference between a confident child and one that is over precocious. You really don't want the latter. I think, now she's started school, you can take a cue from the kinds of things a teacher might say, pull rank, stop negotiating so much and introduce a few boundaries. If she speaks to you in a bossy way cut her short and refuse to engage until she apologises.... etc. 'Because I said so' is a legitimate statement :)

How did she boss the other adult around? If it was to get the adult to play her game her way I'd have thought it was pretty normal?

I don't take the reason with approach conciously (mainly I insist he does it but I'm sure there's time's I don't!) but DS could come across as bossy and in charge.

This it seems came from being an only child from a LP family, he'd not needed to compromise and his games were just that! Starting School sorted this out

For me it would depend on how she's being with you that requires you to compromise.

EG

YOU: DD time to brush your teeth
DD: I don't want to
YOU: well don't then
DD: then the approach works.

IF however (and I've seen this happen with friends DD) she just stares at you, says nothing, walks off, refuses, offers threats if you make her, calls you names etc then you have a problem! In that case yes toughen up the boundaries.

From your post your DD just sounds like a strong willed 4yo, of which I know many! who is harmless and will learn the art of compromise through social situations at school. And don't forget now she's at school having to follow a stritch routine she'll fight it even harder at home.

Thank you- I think you're both right. The bossiness was a game thing and mostly she's probably normal - but she also sometimes tips into precocious. Other times she is very good, compliant and lovely but sometimes has a frighteningly iron will. The other night it was her dad's turn to do stories (we alternate) and she had a tantrum cos she wanted me. We held out, but it wasn't pleasant. I suppose my question is is it too late to teach her that because I say so is end of conversation? She is such a hard negotiator - it's tough.

I think 'no being end of' is something they learn and test the boundaries of. It's never too late to learn it but harder to learn later on. Some people though are strong-willed and will never just do something because someone has told them they should.

My DS was much more compliant to 'no' at 4yo than he is now at 7yo . It's more that he's older now and is forming his own ideas and gaining independence therefore questions why he has to do something. Your DD may just be in this phase.

He tends to get the 'because I said so!' with an explanation of 'because if you don't x may happen'

Taking the teeth as an example: he's always brushed them (no complaints) but sometimes now will ask why he has to do it then. He usually does it after breakfast because he goes to school and so it has stayed that way at weekends. His question was why does he have to do it at weekends when he isn't going out coupled with the because I don't want to do it now!

It's learning to look past the 'because I don't want to now!' and realising it's them asserting some control over when they do the things they have to do, and if it's necessary (tooth brushing and hygeine) for them to do it at a certain time helping them understand why.

Does that make any sense?

I do think as well sometimes the things we find cute pre school age suddenly become 'should we allow it's' once they start.

"Because I said said so is a legitimate statement". I second that.

You are not too late to do something at home and if you feel that she is bossy, you should.

I have quite clearly explained to my dcs (8 and 7) that the house in which they live is not run as a democracy but as a (mostly) benign dictatorship with me as the dictator. I will listen to their view on many things, but unltimately, on most things, the deciding voice is mine and there is no right of appeal once I have pronounced on something. That is clearly understood by all (except for some reason DH) and we generally proceed just fine.

I agree totally with goosey. She said it much more clearly than me.

Have your non-negioables!

Have your will dicusses!

I always tell DS to do what he's told/asked by an adult (unless unsafe!) and if it's something I would let him do or he's not sure why it's been said the time to query is later when we're on our own. The things in this house which are non negioable - get questioned/done at peril! (jumping on beds/ furniture, refusing to dress etc).

I would add as well on your part don't get drawn into the negioations. If you say brush your teeth and it's questioned then take DD into the bathroom, put the paste on the brush and do it for her. OK she'll fight at first but she'll soon realise it's not negioable. I still agree with explaining why's it done. But why is different from refusing IMO.

Or my favourite getting dressed, tell her once, give her a warning about how long she has until you leave and then leave. I garuntee she'll start to do it because leaving the house in PJ's/ knickers is not the better option.

All the time your negotiating she's getting your attention. Would a star chart work whilst your trying to stop these negotiations? So she gets rewarded positively for doing as she's asked and it's an exchange of attention iyswim?

I think what's helpful is when there is a very clear structure to our day, so that things just do happen at particular times. When this slips things get harder. e.g. asking to do something when it's coming up to bathtime. I don't give in but she whines and whines and whines. When we've had a very clear rule e.g telly at 4 o'clock she's pretty good at abiding by it. The trouble is it's difficult for me to juggle life AND be totally consistent about things. It's defintely worse when i'm stressed or tired, because it's harder for me to stay in control of how the day unravels. And I'm glad we aren't complete routine fascists, but I aslo find it harder when that slips.

Other thing is she always wants to buy things! I almost always say no but usually have to deal with public tears and whining as a consequence.

It's difficult when ohter families do different things e.g. ahve an ice cream every day from van outside school. Mine have one once a week. I say that's how we do it in our family, and it works fine, but other things I feel thrown by because sometiems I wonder if actually my rules are unfair in context of all her friends.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong. Once ice-cream a week is a nice treat... ice-cream every day is how you get fat kids :) On the 'buying things' situation DS was quite quick to learn numbers so, if we went somewhere, he'd get a budget of £1 and would have to find something for that price or less. He seemed to enjoy the challenge and, even now at 11yo, is a canny shopper . Sticking to your own rules and routines is always difficult but at least if you have rules you can opt to bend them occasionally. If you have no rules, you've got no chance.

I do think with some things it's good to give them a sense that they are having some control. e.g. with the teeth thing -s he has the information, it's up to her. She ALWAYS cleans her teeth. Giving them a bit of their own money makes them feel in control although actually it's giving you an easy way of saying I'm not buying you anything. I've been wondering when to start giving her a bit of pocket money. Maybe soon. When I was her age we were really poor so my mum was able to say yes or no to things based on genuine budget constraints, which gave me a healthy understanding of value I think (although having said that I became a hopeless shopoholic as an adult!) - we have a bit more money - not loads but we're not poor. so need to construct ideas about value, waste, etc. Which we are doing I think but it's just interesting.

sorry, another thing, cos this is very useful! I think I offer alternatives too much. example: the other day she came and asked if she could draw pictures with a pen on her arm. I said no. She said jsut thins once (unfortunately I am guilty of having misguidedly introduced this phrase.) I said no , it's not good for your skin to draw with pen. Then I said I would find something that wasn't bad for skin. So found eyeliner pencil and drew some pretend tattoos on for her.

Writng this doesn't actually seem anything wrong with it, except that I am going out of my way to fulfill her desire instead of just saying no wiht a full stop and because I am this sort of mum it makes it harder when i do mean no with a full stop,

alittleteapot - I'm going backwards the pen/eyeliner sort of thing is fine, so long as you say 'You can't with the pen because it's bad for your skin, but lets see if we can find something else', it's not OK if you say 'No' and she keeps on & on so that you then end up finding an alternative to shut her up make her happy. Do you see the difference?

I'm very firm, I don't stand for any nonsense/stropping/not doing as they're told. I just can't be done with it.

You need a 'tone of voice' and you need to a) not relent & b) follow through with any consequences.

I don't think it's good for kids to continually get bought stuff. They don't look after their stuff or understand delayed gratification at all. 'Stuff' has got a lot cheaper since we were kids and there's just so much 'stuff' out there that it's so easy to fall into the trap of buying them bits & pieces. However, sadly, their birthdays & christmas just aren't anywhere near as exciting.

Same with the ice-cream, it's a treat - it's not an everyday thing.

Lots of children are bossy it doesn't mean that you shouldn't 'train' them out of it, it's not cute. You need to do it now, because although it might be hard, it will be a lot easier now than when she's 8, 10, 12, a teenager. You need the 'NO - means NO' message to sink in now.

There are times when it's OK & good for her to negotiate - you need to teach her when that is and when 'No - means no' not pester me more. Consistency is the key :)

As for things that you aren't sure about compared to her friends - feel free to list some examples and we can give you our opinion...

This has been an interesting read,as I have a DD who has recently turned five and I recognise some of it! I think we have been firm but fair with her (although I can occasionally lose my temper...) and she is a confident child, which can tip over into bossiness at times. She started school last year and her reception teacher said she was absolutely fine and that there was a number of 'Alpha Females' in any given reception class who liked to be in charge (particularly of imaginery games...) so she was by no means unusual. She responded well to the structure at school (apart from incidents of shouting out answers ) and is mostly good at home. She seems to go through stages of testing the boundaries every few months just to see if we have changed things . It is a juggling act, as you don't want to completely squash a fiesty, confident personality which (IMHO) will be an asset in the long run.....but neither do you want a spoiled, bossy princess who alienates people. I have had to have quite pointed words with DD ocasionally about how she tries to boss other children around on playdates because I don't want her thinking she can always be in charge. She seems to have plenty of friends though and gets on fine socially at school, so hopefully she has scared them all off.

hasn't scared them off.

notyummy - love the alpha females idea. That's dd! She can also be very kind though and is very popular so i'm not too worried about her relationship with peers.

Chipping in - yes, competley agree with everyting you say. I guess part of hte problem with a first child is you're feeling your way but htey latch on to any single incident as the way it will always be. I feel much more confident with ds - partly becasue of his personality - partly because of knowing how to set boundaries and find that authroaitive voice. I still find it a little hard to find with dd. If I'm completely honest I feel daunted by the prospect of a whingeathon etc so I do too often find alternatives. I know your'e right about not saying no then relenting. It's hard if you say no and then think it was an unnecessary no. Perhaps I don't have ocnfidence in myself to be in charge. Tho I do with ds. I need to work on it so any strategies very welcome.

Re other families. One good friend always gets a new toy from the zoo each visit (season tickets so frequent visitors.) I noticed another friend doesn't get to go on rides at zoo each time - we tend to have a ride each time but I now regret not making that more of a rare treat.

I would say she is quite indulged in terms of hte time I give her playing, reading etc. This is partly me but as I say partly how she has always been. Also i enjoy that aspect of parenting. But sometimes eg if she refuses to go to bed I feel at a loss. I threaten things like cancelling play ddates cos she'll be too tired etc. Start charts sometimes work but othertimes she says she doesn't want to play and takes the start chart off the wall! Just before she was 4 she was really pushing boundaries and we had to do alot of time out. She's been much better behaved since starting school, in general...

I agree with Chipping as always

Its totally all about the negotiables and the non-negioables. I agree with no means NO, but also that if everything is NO there's more to argue with! Hence the non-negotiables and the battles not worth fighting!

The alternatives is great! no you can't draw on your arm with a pen BUT you can with eyeliner. You've not given in and taught your DD a valuable lesson in compromise.

It's usually best to offer the alternative before they whinge so you keep the upper hand

The ice-creams/ wanting everything - meh she's normal

Ignore whinging/tantrums and just move on. It's not even worth trying to explain your reasons. She'll eventually get that you won't give in over certain things.

(btw my friends DD2 is like your DD by the sounds of it - she's now learning whinging doesn't work at 6!)

I think you have to be prepared for a week or so of tantrums/whinging etc, but know that at the end of it life will be easier/more pleasant.

For now 'NO means NO' - even if you think 'Oh that was actually a bit tough/unnecessary' you have her whole life to do those other things. For instance, if you had said 'NO' re her drawing on her arm with the pen, then thought about the eye liner - for now, don't go back on it. It really isn't important - getting this sorted is.

It seems you can do it with DS because he doesn't challenge you the way DD does - it's time to shift the power in your relationship from her to YOU! and to do it before she gets any older!

WRT going to bed etc, stop telling her x, y or z will happen if she doesn't... 'she doesn't' needs to just stop being an option. If she's kicking up a fuss just tell her very firmly 'Get Into Bed NOW' if she doesn't just pick her up and put her in, keep returning her to bed - do not argue, cajole, negotiate, threaten or make eye contact, hug, sing ... anything. Silent return.

The zoo thing. If you want to change something like this then do it. Tell her before you go 'Today, we wont be going on the rides' so she knows in advance, then remind her when you get there. When she asks (as she will!!) say, 'No, DD, remember I told you this morning we aren't going on the rides today'. If she carries on 'NO, DD, I have said NO and that's the end of it'.... you may have to go to the 'Do you want to sit in the car on your own while DS & I finish looking at the animals?'.... even if it means doing this (and hiding near by) or going home early the first time, then so be it. She needs to learn that 'NO' is 'NO' not 'Whinge and you'll get it'.

Be strong!! It will be short term pain for long term gain!!

I agree. I have to admit I do do the 'do it or X will happen' occasionally but DS is a fairly compliant child - especially when faced with X

I think different things work for different children. (a strong willed DD like yours almost needs to have no leeway to prevent her finding the loophole)

My friends DD2 (who I mentioned above) expects an alternative so she can compromise on the alternative and is very clever is getting what she wants. When I tried to treat her as I would DS I became unstuck! When they visit 'no means no' about anything (no do it or X) and I really have to stick to my guns despite the 'looks' and 'strops' you get.
For example she knows she is not allowed on DS high sleeper. No one is due to safety and the fact basically there's no need! EVERYTIME she visits she goes up there, everytime she's asked not to she does it 2 or 3 times until her mum distracts her with something else. I got tough!!!!! I said as soon as she walked through the door (said it to all DC's) if ANYONE goes on the bed they (and them alone) would leave the bedroom and play in the lounge where they could be watched. She did it, she left the bedroom. She tried the 'woe is me. give me attention tactic!' which I used all my energy to ignore (despite feeling guilty she couldn't join in with the others). All (may I add) without my friends support who seems to find the best excuses for her DD's behaviour. She did it again the next visit and was removed. The next visit she got up the ladder and when DS left his room (clearly coming to tell!) she got down. It's been like this over everything but I've stopped worrying about offending.

MN has taught me 'my house, my rules!'.

Thanks very much. Dd wouldn't do that if she was at your house - it's really just with us that she's particularly high maintenance. Although having started this post she's been extremely well behaved the rest of today and hasn't challenged things I've said. So maybe I've given myself a bit of a bad press here. Though part of hte problem is that perhaps I rely too much on her behaving responsibly and get thrown when she decides not to. Will try the above to smooth out the hierarchy now. let yo know how it goes!

See - she's trained! If she CAN behave for others.....................

TBH she does just sound like a typical 4yo who's strong willed and high maintenence. That's different to badly behaved IMVHO.

Having a strong personality can be a good thing -and it sounds like you're already teaching her to compromise. It's the lack of willingness to compromise which may cause her to become unstuck - it can cause friendship issues as children hit juniors and the 'confident' child becomes the one with low self esteem.

Just keep working at YOUR Un-negioables and getting her to accept them, and I agree with whoever said above - try not to show that you find DS easier.

my DS has always been easier compared to friends DD's of the same age.

I've been told that will bite me on the arse when he hits teendom.

Or maybe she senses the change in your attitude

Let us know how things go :)

Other thing is she always wants to buy things! I almost always say no but usually have to deal with public tears and whining as a consequence

My ds went through this phase and made shopping a nightmare. I made a new policy and ALWAYS said no. After a while he stopped asking. This meant we could look at toys and if he really liked something I would get it another time for his birthday or Christmas. Occasionally I would suprise him with a toy as a reward for behaving well. I still do this now that my dcs are teenagers. This way they never 'expect' rewards but are delighted to receive them. Usually now it's for working hard at school, getting good reports, having a good attitude, etc. It's another way of acknowledging their efforts and letting them know you recognise and appreciate their lovely qualities.

I have a confident child who likes to lead. I am reading "the unwritten rules of friendship" at the moment as the confidence and desire to lead can tip into bossiness. It's a brilliant book which offers support and strategies to help with all sorts of friendship issues. Dd is six.

Thanks all. Must say she's been great again today. She's tried a few things on but has responded well to me declining. Maybe I'm in firmer mood having been boosted by this thread. Also, as someone else said, I think they do have patches of pushing their luck and testing boundaries. Mostly I think (hope) dd's confidence will hold her in good stead for the future. I never wanted an over-compliant good girl who lived just to please. (Think I was that and don't think it's great.) But other times (like yesterday) I fear she's become a brat. So I will continue to try and find the balance in fostering her confident spirit and keeping her pleasant and compliant when necessary!

There comes a time when you can actually say 'Oh your in that mood today are you? the brat/'tude'/bossy one' (delete as appropriate!)

DS knows now that is my non nagging way of warning him to sort out his attitude.

I'm glad things are positive your end - sometimes just getting it off your chest and chatting about it (as in here) makes you start looking for the good again.

I am so glad that i read this tread.My ds 6 is very confident boy,and i think i was always kind of mum that askes for his opinion,negociate,lesten to his suggestions,i must says most of the times he acts older than his age.and says very good suggestions.But recently i am trapped into ongoing negociation,i think i must stand up and be really firm.Thank you so much for all ideas,this MN is the best place to look for help.
PS :English is not my first language:)