heaven knows where DS1 got his social skills but me and his brother can't hack it with the alpha crowd.

[lingle]

That's it in a nutshell really.

Grim playdate today with alpha-mummy of DS1's alpha-friend plus alpha daughter.

Alpha daughter is lovely and very kind to DS2 (nearly 6 but raw, very raw, social skills).

But against all my planning it ended up being a meet in the park. Cue usual struggle between the two usual extremes - either poor DS1 trying to make others play with DS2 or me having to play with DS2 while other mothers chatted.

I ended up having to leave with DS2 with alpha mummy left looking after DS1 for the umpteenth time.

sorry to moan, I know I am bloody lucky that the older child has the skills to shield/help the younger child and is willing to do so. But I'd resolved never to stray into alpha-crowd playdate land again without bringing a playmate for DS2 (he has a couple) and felt tricked!

again trying to be positive, he is still trying to dictate how the track is laid out, but he lets the other children choose their own trains.

But flexibility is such a hard-learnt skill for him :(

alice - I think it would take a very good friend indeed to feel comfortable to start a conversation along the lines of - oh, so you may have noticed I'm socially awkward. I suspect most people would find that a bit intense really! Talking about worries about a young child is easier to bring up, some people can relate to that. Now my DS is going into yr 3, apparently they will take the social skills stuff more seriously, and will consider him for a social skills lunchtime group. My DS doesn't struggle too much with flexibility, more with being a bit in yer face and not picking up on when people arent amused. He managed to charm my adult childless friends a few months back by telling naff jokes, while me and DH winced. (It was blindingly obvious he was doing this as he felt nervous about conversing so was resorting to playing the clown)

Sorry lingle, I have no great advice, though I can relate and can only say keep trucking away! If DS's school has alpha mums etc then I am so out of the loop I don't know who they are!

I bet your very sociable friend would be very understanding.
I am quite a gregarious person but that doesn't mean I am incapable of understanding other peoples difficulties.
Talk to your friend , I bet it will help. You're obviously a very socially aware person , you notice what's going on in a a group situation .

If this post had been written by the "alpha" mummy and was the other way around, she would have been attacked for being so judgemental! Because you are sooooo insecure about your own child's development, you are making out she is uncaring and overlooking your playdate requirements. Too much projection here. You and you alone are the person who knows your child the best, don't expect it from others, parenting ones own children is hard enough! For what it's worth, I bet if you weren't around your d's would fare better in social situations. Sometimes, they have to watch and learn... I know, my DD was a real worry for me at around 4 years old. She has come to terms with things in her own time. I had to step back and realise that I couldn't interact for her. And I accepted that if she chose not to, it was ok, she still had her own fun.

You sound judgy and jealous of your friend, and that is not, and never will be ok, whatever your parental worried are.

Worries, sorry.

I think you may be underestimating the empathy or understanding of the other mother/your friend. She may not have had the experience but that doesn't mean she won't understand.

You could give it a try.

Oh but Belle, of course the other mum wouldn't understand, she is "alpha" after all. Her children were probably delivered on a golden platter complete with full instructions and amazing social skills.

If you were my friend in that situation and I'd made the stuff up of inviting others then I would have gladly had the DS1 for you. As my gaggle get older I find that 1/2/3 extra dc that play well with mine really are absolutely no hassle.

Huge sympathy for the wider situation though, it's so so so hard to see your dc struggle like that

"I think it would take a very good friend indeed to feel comfortable to start a conversation along the lines of - oh, so you may have noticed I'm socially awkward."

Absolutely, total, it's asking to take up an awful lot of someone's head-space isn't it? We are not such good friends as that (she wouldn't confide anything so intense to me).
It sounds like your DS is still lovely

I'll back off after this but I really think you're not even giving your friend a chance.

Belledame thank you for your helpful suggestion. I agree that a matter-of-fact explanation/update about DS2 would be fine - especially if I then moved the conversation on quite quickly rather than forcing her into an intense chat. I think the art with my friend is to mention the issue only when I am feeling very relaxed so the neediness doesn't rear its head.

Randommess that is a really good point. Better to have to look after one extra easy child than the alternative perhaps. Truthfully, occasionally I've been invited to some day in the countryside and then it has tactfully ended up that only DS1 went (often with my friend) and I took DS2 on a train ride or similar. But I don't want to do that all the time - it feels a bit miserable somehow.

changing 2011, I'm glad that your daughter has found her own way. perhaps by using the word alpha I invited your sarcasm. But I'm finding this thread very helpful so it's too late to change the title now.

no you are definitely right belledame - it's just a question of timing it right. thank you.

takeonboard your ds sounds just like mine. I found "The Unwritten Rules of Friendship" really helpful (ds is a cross between vulnerable child and sensitive child). Its much harder now that he is out by himself as he doesn't seem to be able to go up to a group and join in with whatever they are doing even if he plays well with all the dcs individually.

I got him a book called 'bullies, bigmouths and so called friends' which is really good because, like your ds, he wants friends but he doesn't know how to just slot in so he gets nervous or silly and ends up as the whipping boy.

Lingle When these situations arise with my DS and I feel sick, I don't think I do keep my social graces, actually I am so tense if he is playing with a crowd of kids now that I am sure I appear very rude as I can't keep up with a conversation I am too busy headswivelling/watching every move (as you would with a toddler!) and having my usual battle in my head as to whether to intervene or leave him to it.............I still don't know the answer to that one!

Generally we leave early and I must admit often without any social grace, in fact when this first started occuring or I fist started noticing it which was about 3 years ago, aged 7. I gave my DS a real hard time as I just couldn't understand why there was always conflict surrounding him and why he couldn't just get on with everyone, even though I could see he wasn't a trouble maker and I knew he was genuinely looking forward to playing with everyone. I felt ashamed sometimes that he was failing at what I see as the easy stuff and the most important stuff - OK I will admit it, I was an Alpha child and I think my DH was too.
So have no advice for you on how to keep the social graces, i have never spoken about it either to any of my friends and after reading the posts on here that probably would have helped a lot, difficult now as he get older its a whole different ball game. My big worry is that he starts a new school in September, having been bullied before we are both very anxious.

twolips you got it in a nutshell, always ends up the whipping boy. How old is your DS?
I do have the unwritten rules of friendship books in fact we are working on some things now - my DS is also Sensitive child and Vulnerable child and I think he is a bit of a Different drummer too! I think I have all the boooks there have ever been recommended and they are all helpful in some way but it feels like just as soon as he catches up in one area and "gets it" his peers up the ante and he falls behind again. I spend most of my time worrying about him to be honest and what the futures holds, as in work, relationships, is it always going to be this difficult?
When I read a thread like this I realise that there are so many kids out there suffering because they don't know how to socialise - why on earth isn't there some kind of practical training to help.............in the meantime we keep plugging on.

thank you for that post takeonboard, I feel for you and think many other people will identify with your message. I confess I think I was rude on Friday too (my friend has impeccable manners) and I felt ashamed of myself to the extent that I can't write it all down even on an anonymous forum!

I totally sympathise with the extra difficulty from having been so different yourself as a child. Whilst it's good that you don't get the "oh no it's history repeating itself" feeling that I have, you don't have the consolation of being able to identify and remember similar situations from your own history. Both situations have their advantages and disadvantages.

My oldest brother had similar problems to your DS. I am six years' younger so my recollections are obviously flawed. I know though that once a teenager, he did sometimes retaliate physically. As a result, he was told off after already having been humiliated and the pain I saw him go through was very vivid to me even as a 9-year-old. On a positive note, my parents could and should have handled it differently, and you sound like you have all the skills to handle it well if someone would just give you a structure to work with.

Lucrezia:

"The alpha stuff is pissing me off too much to offer decent advice, though."

I put it to you that it is YOU who has the chip on the shoulder

lingle - I remember when your DS1 was where DS2 is now, so things will get better

thank you fanjo! and many good wishes to you and yours. I have high hopes for DS2 :).

It's heart-rending reading these posts.

well to add a cheery note we've spent the day with two different children today and it all went much better . They were a bit less mature, not so much into sports, more into lego and building stuff.

Got to say this I FUCKING HATE this website I have never met so many complete and utter BITCHES in my entire life!!!! Nice, considerate caring mums come on here for a bit of SUPPORT and on 95% of posts get nothing but shit in return from the people who should be the most understanding and supportive. All you bitches with your shitty comments should fuck off and start a new site.

Lingle I apologise for the rant and can completely sympathise I have no advice as I am still trying to figure this one out myself but I send a supportive hug xx

thanks swc. hope you're doing ok

thanks baldy but I brought it on myself a bit using the term "alpha".

My friend never wanted to be the alpha mummy nor did she apply for the job. She's just very popular, very good with people, and both her kids are too. She once said to me "I didn't expect to have a lifestyle that was like University all over again" so I'm not sure she always likes it. But most of the time I see her, her kids are on their second or third activity of the day and they may already have had a playdate or sleepover! Given that her main issue involves trying not to spread herself and her kids too thin, it's understandable that she can't make my DS2 the focus of attention. She and her friends were though highly sensitive and inclusive in the dark days when he was non-verbal at 2/3. No comments were made, he was just subtly included in things - this is where you learn to value these people with the very good social skills - they have tact!