Any Benefits of Crying?

[beartime]

Sometimes, I'm learning , crying babies have been fed, changed and burped and they've had enough sleep, and even rocking and holding doesn't calm them. So then there's the debate of should we plug them with a breast or a dummy to shut them up? But I was wondering, maybe there are some benefits to crying which might be hindered by plugging them? My DH was apparently left to cry in his cot a lot to build his lungs! And he definitely has a loud voice!
Does anyone know of any? Of course these would also make me feel happier when enduring the crying episodes

Some babies do need to 'discharge', can't think of any better word for it than that. Sometimes things get a bit much for us, and we use whatever strategy helps us to feel better: go for a run, have a glass of wine, shut ourselves away for peace and quiet or even go dancing. The only thing a baby can do is suckle or cry.

My ds was definitely like that. He rarely cried without there being a discoverable reason, except when being put to sleep. If he fell asleep himself all would be fine, but if we put him down to sleep then he would cry for up to 10m. I'm sure it wasn't abandonment, because it was quite clear that firstly he cried longer if he was overtired, and secondly when I checked on him he was already asleep even though he was crying. This lasted from between about 10w (when he started sleeping through) until about 8m.

How old is your child?

I can hear your MIL now "Well - I left [DH] to cry - doesn't do them any harm. Don't be silly. It builds up their lungs"

When you are a baby - crying actually burns off more calories than virtually everything else. You could see it as a form of exercise!!

My biggest lurning curve with my first baby was realising that babies cry when they are tired! I spent hours rocking, cuddling and trying to comfort my screaming DD.

If (s)he's less than about 6-7m old try sticking to the 2 hour rule, which was the only form of "routine" I could stick to. Therefore, just before your baby has been awake for 2 hours, take them off to settle them in their cot/moses basket, or settle on the breast or with a bottle whatever works. It may help stop the overtired crying baby thing... HTH

My baby's 4 weeks old. Thanks for the advice about the 2 hr thing - i will try that - I was wondering when to put him down for naps, so maybe that's a good habit to get into. He does seem to get overstimulatyed and overtired really easily, and then is very difficult to settle. Or often is just difficult to settle full stop - no apparent reason!

Thanks for the comfort about the 'discharge' and calorie burning - i will try and remind myself of that! I really don't know if I CAN hold him everytime he's crying for no other reason cos he cries such a lot and even after i've rocked him etc! So sometimes I just have to put him down and leave him, even tho I feel guilty.

Took me forever to work out that sometimes ds actually wanted to be left on his own to go to sleep. At first, when he cried from tiredness, I'd rock him, hold him, talk to him, you name it, I did it. Eventually worked out the poor boy was saying 'FGS leave me alone woman, I want to go to sleep!'

LOL - if that's what mine is saying (which it could be) then it must take him a LONG time to realise I've left him alone!

I think that sort of crying doesn't last long when they've been put down though. When little my ds DID cry when he needed to sleep - but only really for the time it took to walk downstairs, go into the kitchen, fill the kettle, boil it and make a cup of tea. If it lasted longer than that, I would get him as he would become quite distressed. Normally, if he was tired, he would go to sleep by then.
DD is totally different, and cries in real distress if left.
It's a total myth about 'building up their lungs'. It's utter rubbish. Comes from all the very harsh and punitive childcare routines of the 40s & 50s which did mean babies cried a lot, because they were miserable .

Mine would grizzle a little before they dropped of but that was more a whingy 'I'm tired' cry than giving it real welly IYSWIM. I had to leave them for minute or so, or they would bnever have gone off to sleep!

The lungs thing is crap

Beartime, I can't really think of any benefits to baby of crying, except maybe when baby is overtired and just needs a short cry to let it out and wind down. Like your ds, my dd got easily overtired but that is because she did not know how to wind herself down to sleep. Her response to overtiredness was to ramp up and was hysterical for a long time if I left her to cry herself to sleep in her cot. It took her 2 years to learn that sleep is good.

Crying is a signal from baby that something is not right. Yes they may seem to have been fed, changed, burped, had enough sleep but not necessarily from baby's point of view. In my early mum days, I believed the Baby Whisperer who said that baby cannot possibly be hungry if fed 2 hours ago. But my baby cried after 30 minutes and yes, she wanted the boob - whether hungry or for comfort. I wouldn't say I was plugging her up by giving her the boob. I was just trying to meet her needs at that time.

If you can, maybe try different things to see what your ds wants. For example, even if overtired, sometimes dd would calm down if we put her in a buggy to wheel her down to sleep.

Sorry I couldn't hth make you feel better about ds crying. But just wanted to say that you are doing great and from what you write , I know you care about your ds a lot.

Blueshoes, I would challenge that it is a sign that something isn't right.... some babies do cry more than others, it is a release of tension and if a baby is well cared for and still needs to cry I would let it and hold it. I would not give it a dummy or breast for that reason.
I think in our society we tend to want to "shut" people up.... whilst crying can do the world of good for some.
I now tell my kids to cry in my arms (they are 4 and 6 so MUCH older) rather than say "stop crying".

pprudolph, I agree that society needs to be more forgiving of crying. You sound like a lovely mum holding your children whilst the storms blow over, without making them feel bad about being sad.

But where I have to differ is the application of that principle in relation to infants, ok dd. My dd did cry (a lot) more than other babies - I could not plug her up with anything any more than I could make Niagara falls flow uphill. If a boob was not what she wanted, she would arch and turn her head away and cry even louder. She spat out all dummies, bottles, spoons, rejected all soothers. But if she did want the breast, then she would peacefully accept it and usually be asleep within 10 minutes, rather than crying in my arms for hours.

So that is why I know with my dd it is more than tension. Even as a baby, she wanted something specific and would not stop "asking" for it until she got it. And yes, there were times when she was inconsolable despite my best efforts - in which case, I am with you, I could only hold her until it blew over.

Of course, I am not saying that beartime's baby is like mine. I can imagine some babies may settle for a breast or dummy. But I hope you agree that it is fair to say it is not always tension that causes crying (eg hunger, cold?) and to try and find out what it is ailing baby because crying is, at this stage, baby's only way of communicating discomfort.

cattle - you said if he cried longer than that you'd go get him - why would he be crying in those cases?

Blueshoes, Does there HAVE to be a reason for crying though? Sometimes he's just slept loads, just been fed, temperatures right, just been burped, changed nappy, being rocked and STILL crying!

beartime, your baby is very little, and you may not "know" his crying well enough to tell what he is feeling. I found that at some pont (can't remember how long it took - sorry my two are 5 and 6 now) we learnt to read them much better, so that we could tell whether they were distressed or not, and could comfortably leave them to cry themselves to sleep, because we knew their patterns. Have you tried swaddling? That really helped ds relax enough to go to sleep. I don't think that it is particularly helpful never to leave your baby to cry, but judging what is OK or not is just something you learn, and it varies from baby to bay as well (ds was an all out "shouter" very loud, but didn't last long; dd could cry for what felt like hours - she always seemed to pace herself!)

thanks nooka - I hope we learn soon! I have thought about swaddling but no-one ever explains about how muchclothes they should ear under the blanket, and if you put them in bed like that, whether to put any blankets or sheets on top. And do you wrap them in a blanket or a sheet?

I swaddled in a sheet and used the general grobag principles for when it came to what to wear.

In terms of crying I felt from pretty early on that babies can only really communicate by crying so that meant I realised that it didn't always mean distress. OK, so whilst it certainly isn't an indication of true happiness it did help me to let DD cry it out. Often her tears were due to frustrtion at not being left alone for some peace and quiet!

I remember reading lots of stuff about how being left to cry makes you really bad at coping with emotional stress because you are flooded with cortisol and the bits of the brain that could cope with it can't because they didn't develop because you were left to cry. Can't remember who though - possibly Dr Sears.

If a breast or a dummy 'shuts them up' then it has met their needs. Ds turned out to have loads of allergies and was probably in a lot of pain when he was little and he couldn't tell us. But on the surface he was fed, changed, burped and had slept - I was glad that I cuddled him, even though it didn't stop the crying. I would have felt very guilty months later when I worked out why he cried so much.

how interesting, bobby. dx was very against babies being left to cry, it is a cultural thing where he is from.

Beartime, you asked "Does there HAVE to be a reason for crying though? Sometimes he's just slept loads, just been fed, temperatures right, just been burped, changed nappy, being rocked and STILL crying!"

Well ... that IS the question. There were loads of times when my dd was like that - seemingly crying for no reason. This is where I learnt a lot from the old hands about comforting a baby. There is so much you can do besides rocking. Pennies mentioned swaddling.

Your baby is 4 weeks and could be getting to a stage where he wants to see more - My dd would never allow herself to be cuddled/rocked like a baby, but liked to be over my shoulder or carried in front upright facing outwards. I had to walk around, not sit. Sometimes, we just went out in a buggy and the change of atmosphere and rythmn would soothe her. Yes, that can lead to overstimulation (which it frequently did when she was little), but then you deal with that. In the meantime, happy alert baby for 1 hour, rather than crying herself sick. I know that is a lot of work - and it was disbelief on my part for a long time (still is). But the result is priceless. When you spend so much time trying to find out what makes baby happy, you become soooo close to him - he is like your heartbeat. It is hard work when they are babies but before you know it, you will begin to reap the rewards many times over.

I also agree with bobbybob on the studies about babies left to cry for long periods will become flooded with stress hormones which alter the development of the brain such that the brain becomes permanently wired to a nervous anxious state even after baby has grown up and can't remember the long bouts of crying. In the extreme situations, it leads to attachment disorders.

This is not to scare you. We have to be sensible about babies crying - sometimes it is inevitable - like when you are caring for another child at that moment or working with hot liquids. And children are resilient. But you also have to know your child - if a baby calms down after a short period, then fine. But if, like my dd, the baby goes into apoplectic wails, then there is a lot to be said about avoiding long periods of this sort of crying because it IS stressful for baby.

beartime - why? could be a lot of things. Discomfort, possibly? Wanted me to hold him? Who knows? It seems likely that babies DO (contrary to some baby gurus opinion - esp Tracey Hogg) experience the full range of human emotions - ie fear, anxiety. They are programmed to dislike being left alone as obviously it would not generally be in the evolutionary interest of completely helpless babies to be indifferent to being away from a carer (nor in the evolutionary interests of humans for mothers to be indifferent to being away from their babies, of course).
If the baby is crying, I would always recommend food if they haven't been fed for a little while, then going out for a walk with the baby in a sling or pram. It usually works, and if it doesn't, at least it sounds less appalling in the open air.
I recently read Why Love Matters by Sue Gerhardt which is a bit of an eye-opening read, and is not very positive about leaving babies to cry, though of course, some babies just DO cry, even if you are holding them. My ds was quite colicky and cried horribly sometimes. My dd has hardly ever cried - though she does cry if you try to put her in her cot!
I also agree the using the term 'shut them up' is inappropriate. If they 'shut up' when you give them the breast or a dummy, then their needs HAVE been met.
My ds has a very, very strong need to suck - even now at four he mouths everything. It seems to be part of his dyspraxia. Of course, when he was a week or two old I had no idea he had dyspraxia - it would be impossible - but I DID realise that sucking gave him a lot of comfort and I am very, very glad that I was able to meet his needs by both feeding AND giving him a dummy. I think to have deprived him of one might have made him an anxious baby who cried more.
He doesn't have a dummy any more and dd has never had the same needs and doesn't have a dummy.

And I am very interested in the idea that crying is cultural. A mumnsnetter - Suedonim - lived in Indonesia, where babies are held all the time, and says crying babies are almost unheard of (as are tantrums). I think modern lifestyles can be really hard on babies.

I know as adults we associate crying with pain or with emotional release and so it is easy to think of crying as a similar thing with children. However, I don?t think it is this simple. Babies cry as their main source of communication.
As a new mum I found crying very stressful and frustrating. I didn?t always read DD1 correctly - was unable in the early days to tell the difference between a hungry cry, a tired cry and one in pain. I remember looking down on her and thinking that I had absolutely no idea what she wanted or needed. As a result I was quite inconsistent with my responses and she cried a lot (not that I am suggesting this is what is happening with you!). Once I had established our own routine, was calmer with her and could read her cries things did improve. Then, a little bit further along the line I started to see the triggers before they happened - catching her just as she was starting to get tired and put her down rather than waiting until she was exhausted and the only thing to do was to let her cry herself out.
I found I got a lot of help and reassurance from watching the Baby Whisperer programmes and reading her book. Her EASY - eat, activity, sleep, you time really made sense along with loads of fairly obvious once you know type advice about how to put a baby down in the most calm and relaxing way, to withdraw from the room without upsetting them etc etc My hv taught me to swaddle properly - big help.
Pesonally I don?t think the "leave them to yell for hours" is a good idea (and have read stuff to say that it can lead to pyschological abandonment issues in future) but think that the constant picking up and rocking to sleep movement isn?t so good either. Babies need to learn to fall to sleep independently IMHO. A happy medium is probably about right.
If your baby is constantly crying and you are finding it hard to read why, even rocking and holding not working, I would have a word with someone in rl who knows you and your baby for a bit of support and advice such as a hv - coping alone can be exhausting and a huge form of stress and worry xx

I am going to be a bit controversial here and tell you that with my DS2 now 5mths, I can read him much much better than DS1. When I could see he was tired but was having trouble getting himself off to sleep I tried laying him on his tummy instead of his back which one of the nurses told me to do when I was in hospital ever so briefly after having him. When he was smaller I would go in once he was asleep and roll him back onto his back. Now he can roll over both directions himself I don't worry about it. Recently I read a book called The Happiest Baby on the Block by Dr Karp, which is about soothing techniques for babies who cry alot and he mentions the side or tummy position as well as several other good tips for 'collicky' babies, so I would highly recommend it. I wish I had read it when I had DS1, who was indeed collicky.

AussieSim, I don't think you are being controversial - my ds was a doddle to read compared with dd. He had a very clear, self-established rhythm, and it was fairly easy to work out what he wanted. We could almost time his crying pattern when he was tired (something along the lines of: bellow bellow bellow, whimper, whimper, bellow (oh, he's found his thumb) suck suck silence (give or take a few more bellows)!) Once he found his thumb it was even easier. With dd it was very different, and I am afraid that she drove us around the bend for a good few months (hours of jiggling required). However she has been much easier ever since! If your ds keeps on crying and appears distressed, you might try cranial osteopathy. Friends of mine found this really made a difference to them.

Bobby that is interesting. It does go against my 'instincts' to leave him.

Blueshoes my ds also seems to really like my shoulder but it had only vaguely occurred to me that he might like seeing things, but it might be true of him too.

The reasin I said about shutting them up is because I tried a dummy with mine the other day when he was crying hard, and he did suck it, but each time it fell out he was still crying, so it didn't really pacify him. Whereas when I walked about with him and rocked him without a dummy he totally calmed down (for 10 mins anyway!)- so it made me a bit cynical I suppode. But I'm not at all against dummies, and I s'pose their efectiveness might depend on the reason he's crying.

Xmas pud - I agree with the happy medium thing, bcos I think it's good for them to learn to fall asleep independently too, but I s'pose the hard thing is - where do you draw the line?

Nooka what on earth is cranial osteopathy?

I might try the tummy thing - tho' I have doubts about him staying asleep if I roll him over! When I have tried the tummy burping position he often quiets down.

Thanks everyone for all your help - it's already helped, like yesterday I tried the 5 min principle of how much crying to let him do once I put him down, and once he fell asleep and twice I had to go get him.

After that stuff about emotional anxiety tho I'll probably end up using my new sling a lot!

hi beartime, I'd suggest doing whatever works for the baby because that will work for you. Remember, every sodding person you meet will be an expert, just because they've had one, LOL. (Myself included !)

Walk in the pram ? Dummy ? Sling ? Quiet time ? Tummy time ? Cuddles ? Sleeping on shoulder ? Dip in the bath ? etc. Everyone has their own story of what worked for them, and of course there are general guidelines you can follow, but all babies respond differently and further their responses change as they age.

Don't worry about the bad habits / rod for your own back stuff as IMHO, the happier you can keep the babbas, the happier mamma will be ! Almost everyone worries about babies 'picking up bad habits' or that they are 'creating problems in the future' etc., but time will pass, baby will learn more about how to deal with its changing environment and you will know you've done everything possible to produce a happy, secure baby !

Good luck !