I don't know how to handle my daughter anymore........

[beatie]

........ and she's not even 3! (she's 3 this week)

I'm in tears writing this because we've just had an 'episode'. I don't usually write this type of post on Mumsnet for fear of inviting criticism. But I am LOST I moved house in the summer and dd has started Pre-shool so I have limited contact with parents of children the same age. I don't even know what is normal anymore.

I have a 2 month old baby so I do not know how much of her behaviour is attributed to age/the baby/the fact I had a difficult pregnancy so DH had to step in and do most of the practical and fun stuff with her. But, somewhere throughout this year I have lost my sweet little girl, to whom I felt so connected. I feel like I live with a stranger or an unpredicatble relative.

She's a delightful child in everyone else's eyes so her behaviour isn't an issue with anyone else but me and dh. When she's good, she's very very good... sweet and caring with loads of empathy.

Her worst point is her stubborness. Her refusal to get dressed, eat her dinner, put her shoes on, get in the puchchair/walk, get in the carseat. Every day we'll have at least one and sometimes 3 episodes like that. My mood is fairly good most of the time and I try all the nice approaches first, explanations, distractions - sometimes playing the empathy card even works. The nice approach works a few times but like I said, everyday she'll make sure the day is spoilt at some point.

I can see her mood suddenly switch. There is no trigger and no catalyst for the stubborn episodes. I leave enough time for us to get ready to go out of the house, so we're not rushing and she gets plenty of attention since our new baby is such a contented delight and doesn't demand much from me.

So, I need some practical steps to ride out this (hopefully) phase before my brain explodes.

I'm not even sure if it is a phase though. I hear about other people who never have to discipline their children and I wonder what's wrong with my daughter. I think she's always been like this since she got past her first birthday but I was able to deal with it and it never seemed like a problem. Now my methods are not effective and I don't know what else to try.

wht discipline routine have you got for the stubbornness?

I have a dd who is 3 in 4 weeks and we have the same thing about getting dressed for eg. In that situation, I tell her once to get dressed and the reason why she needs to do it. If needs be I tell her again but nore sternly and threaten that if she doesn't she will go on the naughty step. I then follow through that if she still defies me. She gets 2 minutes (willl be 3 from next mohth) and told why she is there (YES I WATCH SUPERNANNY BUT IT WORKS ).

She doesn't need atrigger for the episodes - just being 3 is trigger enough! Try to keep your cool and introduce a discipline so that she knows who's the mummy.

Three a day?

Sorry but that sounds entirely normal to me. EG this morning my 3yo had a wobbler because she wanted breakfast at home, because she didn't want to wear jeans but a skirt.

I use mainly distraction methods and naughty step

My suggesstion is just simply to be consistant. It is difficult and sometimes easier to give in but if you are consistant with what you expect then it will help.

yes we had one this morning as she wanted weetabix instead of porridge, one when she didn't want to go to nursery and I'm now going to pick her up so there will probably be more as we are shoe shopping this pm.

Please try not to get too upset you seem to be handling it well from what you say. If she refuses to eat dinner then let her go hungry - she will soon tell you when she wants something. Example - my dd yesterday refused to eat dinner so I just took it away and put it in the fridge. I refused her anything else for pudding etc. Later on she said she was hungry so the same dinner was warmed up and she ate it.

You see, I bounce between thinking it's normal and then thinking her behaviour is more challenging than others. Like I said, I don't have any contact with the mmu's sho have children of the same age, since I moved out of the area.

We were using a time-out method of discipline. Request, warning and count to 3 and then stand in the corner. It used to work. Now her stubborness has reached new depths. What do you do if your child isn't compliant after the 2/3 minutes is over?

Try and stay calm, tell yourself it is a phase and she will definitely grow out of it. You aren't doing anything wrong, it is completely normal to have uncooperative moments/episodes. She is likely to be very jealous of the new baby- despite your best efforts-- which will go on for a while but again it's very normal.
I tend to favour the Tanya Byron/little angels type of approach to discipline, eg lots of positive praise, sticker charts for good behaviour. Ignore or distract from bad behaviour and at last resort 'time out'...
Aged 2-3 my daughter was a complete pain at getting dressed etc
Now she is 5 dresses herself for school every day and is almost embarassingly well-behaved
Good luck, I'm sure you will both come through this patch xx

at the end of the 2/3 mins ask them if they are sorry and make them say it. tell them again why they are on the step and if the behaviour still continues they get anouther 32/3 mins. This sonsitency is done until they realise it is not acceptable. believe me it works and is usually effective within a few days. You just have to stick to your guns and see it through.

There are all the usual tactics, like giving her a choice (not always possible) and making a gane of routine things (could never be arsed with this, am alwaays in too much of a hurry!)

But as other posters have said, this seems fairly normal - I think my DD (just 3) has an innate need to be an arsey madam and reach conflict point with me at least once a day (often more).

She goes off on one for seemingly trivial things then surprises me by being completely obedient when it's essential but am expecting mayhem.

You're not alone!

gane? gane? game!

beatie - no suggestions but wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you

Have you got my child hidden there???

2 1/2 and the same to a tee!!! Today she is naked (luckily I have nothing to do, and can't be bothered to fight) because she decided she didn't want to go to the shops, so hid her clothes. I've turned the heating off now, so she should be getting cold soon - she'll learn to get dressed though .

We generally go with the naughty step, but it only works for that particular incident... she tends to have forgotten that throwing toys = naughty step by the next day, so its back to square one.

I'm considering the whole pasta jar thing, but don't think that she'll get the hang of it.

How do you guys handle car tantrums? She can't go on the naughty step, and by the time she's gotten home, it seems a bit late to be punishing her for the thing she did 20 mins ago.

Are you raising her single handed? if you do have a relevant other then you need to make sure they follow whatever you put in place to ensure consistency.

She had two choices today when she had the final straw episode. We were actually on our way to do something fun! She wouldn't leave the house... she decided to stand still and shake her head at the final minute after I'd spent 10 mins packing a bag, getting pushchair ready and getting us all in shoes, coats, baby bjorn.

I think I feel like I do all the right things and it gets me nowhere. I watch all those programmes, take onboard the tried and tested methods positivepraise/timeout but her behaviour is getting worse.

If I knew it was a phase I'd not worry so much.

I think we both have what my mum calls a "spirited child" - they are such a joy when they want to be, and can be so kind that they make your heart melt, but if they don't want to, then you know about it!!!

I'm not sure I can reassure you with "its just a phase" (remembering my sister growing up) - more that it changes as they get older, and you get better with your tactics and defense

I do much better on the days when I just accept that this is who she is - the days I look at other people's placid children are the ones when I crumple.

Huge sympathy from me. My ds2 is now 3.5 and so stubborn. Sometimes I just don't want to be with him at all as he is so contrary. But deep down I know he'll grow out of it because his siblings have.
One thing I find works really well is stickers. Not a chart but to stick on himself. I got some brilliant, very cheap "smiley faces" from a website called minilabels (not sure of the exact address but can find it if you want). There are different colours of the smaller ones, and slightly bigger ones which are luminous yellow. He gets to choose which one he wants and sometimes he is even allowed two. He gets them as rewards for doing things generally eg being very quiet when he gets up, but also for doing something when asked - but I have to be quite crafty. eg if he won't put shoes on, say "would you like a smiley face?" "I'll go and find them while you put your shoes on". That's how I do it, anyway - you work out your own system. You will then find that she gets a lot of attention from eg other parents/teachers/shopkeepers who will ask her what she got her sitcker for.
Nothing is failsafe, but even reducing the incidents by one a day helps!!!

I'm relieved to hear that others have stubborn Pre-schoolers too. My dd has rarely had what I would deem a tantrum... the screaning, lying on the floor kicking her legs type. She reacts well to being told she can't have or can't do something. But defiance and stubborness can be just as aggravating. The irony is that I too was a stubborn child and my mum laughs at me and calls it payback.

We've had 2 or 3 car strops where she won't allow the straps of her carseat to be done up. I tried taking her out and standing her in a corner until she would be more agreeable. It worked eventually although not as quickly as I would have liked. The last time it happened, I got into the front seat of the car and turned the radio up very loud and just waited and waited....

How about:

"look! look! do you think that we could put a smiley face on there?"
Child looks to see where you are pointing, which is at the clasp you are just about to clunk into place.
"there! hold on, just let me do it up and I'll show you, look, there! Let me just do it and I'll go and find one - what colour do you think will look good?"

Have you seen the other thread about the pasta jar - there's some really good ideas on there.
I tried to strap ds1 into his booster seat instead of a naughty step but it didn't work because it took too long and so he still had plenty of attention. It seems to work better if I tell him that he cannot be with me/us when he is naughty / hits his brother / throws toys / whatever, and send him into the next room on his own. Then I make a lot of noise having fun without him for a few minutes, then make him apologise before he can join us again.
If your dd won't co-operate just get on with whatever it was you wanted, eg just strap her into the car seat and drive away, giving her the minimum attention. This works with ds1 who's quite small, but if your dd is strong I appreciate it won't be easy.
Sometimes planning ahead helps - agreeing an outfit before bed, giving a 2 minute warning before meal times, discussing the plan for the day (first we have to go to the shops but we'll go to the park on the way home).
We used to threaten no story at bedtime, but don't any more because we think it's a really important time of day to be calm and loving, however vile he's been, and for him to go to bed feeling forgiven and loved. Not having a story would be too upsetting for me and dh!
Hang in there. Your dd sounds very normal to me.

ps make sure you spend time doing stuff with her while the baby sleeps - and not just housework!

I generally manage to fight my way into getting her clipped in, and then she slumps over sideways so she's out of the seatbelt halfway

We changed her from the 5 point harness because I was having battles every time, now we only have battles once a week or so, but it is still hard. Biggest problem is that she knows which of my buttons to push - she knows that spitting will make me very very , so does it with a glint in her eye and watches me tip over the edge. She knows if my voice is raised then I've lost control.

I guess I should be pleased - she's very bright

beatie - first, huge sympathies for the upset and frustration a willful toddler causes us well intentioned mums!

Now - it's all well and good that you have the patience to wait until a child "will allow" the straps of their car seat to be done up. But, I wonder if perhaps you are allowing your dd to control situations via her temper more than she should? Perhaps a bit of gentle "manhandling" is called for? What do you do when you absolutely must be somewhere at a certain time?

I "wrestled" with my dd a few times, and she ultimately understood that I was in charge, and that a tantrum was not going to give her the result she wanted. Yes, it will be upsetting for you in the short term, but I really think you should persevere.....

I've tried wrestling her into the carseat too. I used to be able to but we changed carseats recently and with this one I just cannot hold her in place and manage the straps. She is SO willful... I don't know the best way to handle her. Sometimes I feel too forceful and should let the smaller battles be forgotten, other times I feel i need to nip her behaviour in the bud for fear it escalates. I guess being a good mummy is knowing when each is appropriate. I wish i felt like I was there.

I feel like I do all the right things... 5 warnings before we do something or leave somewhere, and I always go through a sequence of events with her so she knows what the day entails.

She has started to give me that "Make me" look.