Failed our steiner toddler group

[Orangeflower7]

I was looking for a smaller more relaxed kind of toddler group for my ds (2.5). Got a bit fed up with the big busy groups lots of ride ons etc..so tried the steiner group. Just met one of the mums from it today who is 'sad it didn't work out for me' and am feeling a bit of a failure.

I'll explain a bit. It went on for ages and we all had to sit round the table and make a woolen spider which to be honest the children were to young to do- ds got frustrated and threw it away. It seemed that it was for the mums really, (craft) I found it stressful as I had to help make the activity so much whereas ds wanted to go play, and there was no choice of activity, all the mums were sat doing the craft activity so the children who were playing didn't have much input really.

The routine was like this (over 2 hrs) Craft-then (adults make snack which children couldn't eat just yet) -singing-then wash hands (line up) then-sit up and eat snack- then story.

I just found it too much direction and sitting down stuff for a 2 year old..although the (mostly little girls) other children seemed very obedient

It is a shame as it would have been a nice change...didn't find it very child centred though. Please tell me it's not just my ds is it, I do know a little about early years and the emphasis is a lot on play, (adult led and child initiated, choice and independence, how does that sit then with steiner?

So back to the big groups we go.

SIL is a person who thinks of Steiner as an alternative arty type of private education. She would love her DC (when she has them) to go to a Steiner school. She seems to think steiner encourages learning through play and all that malarkey. She would run a mile if she knew the reality I think.

manatee I would be interested to hear more from someone who's been here. Also interested in how you 'deprogram' yourself. It's some thing I'm still struggling with (brought up in strict evangelical christian bubble)

moosemama - reminds me of a story my MIL told me about a wee boy she heard about in her nursery teacher training. He was referred to a child psychologist because he would only paint with black - page after page.

Turned out he was strongly left handed and the black paint was always on his left side

Yes my mum has a story of a child's homework which received a very poor mark.. the question was 'What is water?'

This child was only 9 or 10 and it turns out, while others had been eagerly scribbling about it being a substance clear and wet etc, had been unable to write anything at all as he was actually considering what is water and had no idea of its chemical make up.

Clever boy

Another story of teacher drawing a sheep on a board and asking a group of rural preschoolers, what is that? She was met with silence. "Come on, you must know what that is, children." one little boy raised his hand: "Is it a Northumberland Blackface?"

Clever children

OK, in no particular order:

Rudolf Steiner is probably one of the most influential occultists to have lived in the last couple of centuries. He was either a remarkable visionary or completely chicken oriental, as he said he could see into the spiritual world and his whole philosophy is based on the insights he claims to have received thence.

He got involved with Madam Blavatsky's esoteric Theosophy movement, and became quite influential there. Theosophy combined elements of Western and Eastern spirituality, eg believing in Christ but also reincarnation. IIRC there's also a strong Rosicrucian and Gnostic influence. Steiner then split with the Theosophists when Blavatsky announced that Krishnamurti was the reincarnation of Christ. From there on in he led his own movement, which he called Anthroposophy (wisdom of mankind).

Anthros believe in reincarnation. But our sufferings aren't punishment for misdemeanours in previous lives, rather we choose the 'life lessons' we want before we're born so as to further the development/evolution of our souls. They also believe that the universe is teeming with spirits but that humans have forgotten how to perceive them. I think this is to do with the collective stage of evolution we've reached as a species - something about overcoming materialistic thinking in order to reach the next stage of human consciousness. These spirits may be actively involved in the lives of humans, even if we can't perceive them.

Humans have four bodies: physical, etheric (brute life force) astral (emotional/soul) and spirit (reason/thinking). Animals have the physical, etheric and astral ones, plants are physical and etheric and some substances have no spiritual content at all. I think the reason Steinerites hate plastic is because it's man-made and hence has no etheric or astral content/history at all. (Presumably the fact that it's made of oil, which in turn is made of dinosaurs, doesn't count.) But I may be making that up.

In pedagogical terms, they believe that humans go through distinct stages as they develop. Apparently your ego (the spirit part of you) only incarnates at the age of 7, and education before then should focus on etheric and astral development, ie healthy body and emotional stuff. That's why steinerites don't teach younger children to read before 7. They also believe that stages of growing up correspond to the epochs of human history, back to and including Atlantis (really) and that what and how a child learns should be appropriate to this. So you get taught lots of stuff about ancient histories/cultures, but you're also supposed to be taught in a way that reflects what Steiner said he perceived clairvoyantly about what these cultures had been like.

I'm not 100% certain but at our school football was banned I think because it was believed to drag children down into over-awareness of their feet and lower bodies, and hence to foster coarse emotions. Can't remember why TV is bad.

There's masses, and masses, and masses more, but I have to pretend to do some work for a bit

Hi that's interesting the black paint thing- my boys have both gone through phases of wanting the black paint and painting over stuff. Reminds me a bit of early years training where we learned about schemas- patterns of behaviour at times in development, for example rotational (wheels and and things) transporting stuff, there was another where they hide stuff and cover things up and I'm sure there was an example of a child doing this with painting, covering things with black paint. Ah just looked it up maybe 'enclosure' schema. All normal stuff, makes their play seem more reasonable I guess..

Interesting discussion from the foundation stage forum here-

www.foundation-stage.info/forums/index.php?showtopic=7410

Thanks for the suggestions about the children's centre as an 'alternative' to the hectic playgroups. I've since been in touch with them and they may be having a quieter group focusing on communication, possibly for children with slight language delay (which could apply to ds) I'm considering offering to help with it, so we'll see. Didn't realise the children's centre may be open to ideas of running new groups.

Just was going to mention another thing for toddlers I have come across which also 'failed' at. This is a kind of 'wild walk' at toddler group time (10 to 12) which was not cheap (£7 per walk) which consisted of meeting up with other parents, mostly with toddlers in backpacks or preschoolers, briskly walking up a hill covered in trees. When we got most of the way up the leader hitched a rope round a tree close to a steep drop so the kids could swing on it and proceeded to start painting a tree with 'magic dust' I looked on terrified as little ds (who was 2 nearly 3 at the time) skidded down the slope to get stuck on a sharpish stump which luckily stopped his skid, then had to kind of skid down myself to rescue him. The slightly older ones were coping ok with the rope swing however it did seem to be a struggle for the mums with the littler ones. I felt sorry for those with little babies clutching them precariously.

After we were all directed to follow the magic dust to find a owl toy hiding in a tree-hole we sat down to burn a twig (yes great do think it's fab for kids to be outside burning stuff etc) and eat our snacks from home (mainly vegan of course except me)

Okay I think it's good to have risk as an element in play however do think it should be appropriate to the development/ age / awareness of the children, and this was a group for pre-school children and carers (although some home schooled older ones came too I think- they seemed tall anyway)

Hmm anyway got off the Steiner focus sorry. I was just at the dentists reading a posh travel magazine, it had an article about some 'wild food' weekends, £185 for the walks, for adults, where you could pick seaweed, limpets and stuff and cook it. You could camp nearby but that was not inclded, or do a hour walk for £15. They said all the children were sweetly dressed in Boden looking horrified as the dad skinned a rabbit in front of them. "Oh he's taken it's coat off."

Am now thinking up some posh bs I could possible do maybe wild food walks with the ds? Garden strolls in the botanical gardens for £5 a pop (bring your own herbal tea?) Hmm

OTheHugeManatee - I believe the TV ban has to do with Steiner's belief that a devil called Ahriman talks to people through electronic devices

It would be one thing if they were honest and upfront about who they are and what they do, but they aren't. This says to me that they are insidious, deliberately hiding their true faces to get their hooks into our children.

For example, I was told (and then found out):
"We start the day with poems" (Every day they recite the same poem, which is actually a prayer talking about "the spirit of God" and "the soul that lives in me" )
"We don't rush to teach kids to read. We wait until they are ready" (They wait until milk teeth begin to fall, because that is when reincarnation of the soul is apparently complete )
"We encourage kids to dance and express themselves" (The dance in question is a weird swaying ritual thing called Eurythmy that is supposed to help children communicate with the spirit world )

There are more.Gah. I ran far and fast when I found these out, thankfully before other school's enrollment deadlines.

Orangeflower - your experience is interesting, I think the outdoor stuff is all about how it is managed by the adults.

My sister worked at a preschool which actively encouraged risk taking - the children were allowed to climb trees at will, physically test themselves, decide on their activities and were left to judge risk for themselves. Coming from a different environment, she spent the first few weeks with her heart in her mouth but is now really positive about her experience. This was a state nursery with an outstanding Ofsted.

Montessori approaches seem to have been absorbed by my childrens' styate nursery too..

Orangeflower the Steiner school we visited was iin the middle of a forest and there was a big stream in which the kids were taken to paddle and also a lake which they swam in evey week... I couldn't go for that...the leader was so vague!

but montessori is different, even though they are sometimes put in the same corner as steiner.
montessori is about reaching goals, but to let the children find the way themselves with guidance by the adult.

Yes, and Montessori has very rightly been hugely influential. It's genuinely an educational method rather than a spiritual philosophy.

I'm fascinated - I've never heard of Steiner before and have just spend the better part of my son's nap googling it. Does sound very granola. OTheHugeManatee - do please tell us how you got on with all of it.

Oh god yes, eurythmy. Spare me from ever meeting a eurythmist again. Of all the smug floaty backstabbers, eurythmists were always the worst. They seemed to be treated with a tinge of reverence as well, which made them even creepier.

I've tried to explain eurythmy before, but you kind of have to see it. and . It gives me the heebie-jeebies watching it now.

CoteDazur Yes, Ahriman talks to you through your telly. But it's not just telly. Ahriman talks to you through all technology

On the other hand, I did learn a fairly unusual set of skills. I'm handy with a sewing machine, can hand-sew, weave, knit and crochet, make felt, do reasonable joinery including dovetail joints and operating a lathe, lay a brick wall, weld metal, turn pots on a wheel and give you a reasonable account of the mythologies of Egypt, Greece, Rome, Old Norse and King Arthur. I can sing rounds, explain crop rotation, do stage design and backstage management, I've grown my own wheat, ground it by hand and baked my own bread, I know how to make butter and can milk a cow.

All great stuff if you want to knit your own yoghurt and live in the woods, I suppose, though not much fucking use given that I work in digital communications and live in South London

He might talk through all technology ergo making it evil, but it doesn't stop them having a bloody website for their school in Basel!

That's what I hate about these cult like organisations the most - the bloody hypocrisy.

I have no issue with Montessori, built on very good foundations with a lovely history, i just hate the smuggity parents who act like their kid is Einstein because they chose to send them to a Montessori nursery.

Steiner schools were started so that the parents could go to work making fags!!! They seem to have hushed that bit up!

And please if you have time read into his rascist beliefs. All very odd with no scientific background of research or explanation.

I wonder if parents will be sending their kids to the "David Icke Foundation Creche" in 100 years time with the same smugness!

That first video is like a scene from The Wicker Man.

For the sake of balance, I should add that Steiner said there was not one devil, but two. According to him, Satan and Lucifer are different beings. Lucifer is the devil who encourages you to lose your head in an escapist way, eg being floaty, over-emotional, vague, arrogant or otherwise out of touch with reality. Satan (Ahriman) is the one who encourages you to become dehumanised, over-rationalistic and emotionless. The task of humans is supposedly to balance the two.

If you leave out the devil bit, it's quite reasonable: don't get too vague and floaty, don't get too reductive and materialistic either. Unfortunately in my experience of Steinerites, 'oooh, that's a bit Ahrimanic' gets bandied about a lot (and Being Ahrimanic is a very Bad Thing) but you almost never hear 'oooh, that's rather Luciferic'. Or, in other words, they're very down on rationalism and materialism, but conveniently ignore the other side of the devil, as they're pretty damn good at being floaty as a rule.

Wow. I'm finding this very therapeutic

at NormanTebbit You should have seen the bonfires at the Midsummer Festival

[shocked]

You mean - the Steiners got Shergar?.

OhTheHuge, that's absolutely fascinating. Bloody impressive skill set. Even though I find the philosophy bizarre and very woo, I'm very jealous of all the things you can do!

Did Hugh Fearnley Whittingsall go to a Steiner d'you think?

HugeManatee I didn't go to a Steiner school and have most of the skills you describe except the building stuff - studying prehistoric archaeology and having lived on a farm did help, I'm glad to have had a nice part Montessori education on the side, though.

It's the dogma that really gets me though - no reading until 7 because of the teeth starting to fall out - well FWIW my two started dropping teeth like anything at age 5 and I very* much doubt they'd have been allowed to read in a Steiner school.

I went to the wedding anniversary of the Steiner couple I have mentioned in previous posts (they were friends of a friends and to be fair the woman was a brilliant birthing partner for my friend who was a single mum) and oh was there a lot of woo! My friend and I whiled away the time gently taking the mick - they didn't even notice, thought we were really interested!

Killer vegetarian pate though, I got the recipe and still make it sometimes, yum, even though I am a total carnivore.

well that explains ds1's behaviour after he's been playing on the blardy nintendo ds then.

i am fascinated. i know bugger all about steiner, and had vaguely assumed it to be montessori-esque with no real basis for that assumption at all.

i am also faintly curious that boden appear to have been ripping off the exetersteinerschool homemade fashion choices for the mass market.

who knew...

all i can say is, thank gawd for mn, because i have been pondering a fairly woo alternative school for ds1 (the greenlearning academy) and now know what i'm looking for. (or not looking for...)

Aye. It was all very strange. I guess the main upside is that I'll give most DIY a go in a fairly gung-ho way and usually do an ok job, while the downside is that I feel it took me an extra decade to get to grips with how most of the world really works.

I have zero desire to Steiner educate my own offspring though. I want them to grow up with the conventional neuroses, not a special, different, more spiritual kind

I?ve been reading this thread carefully because .....ds is due to start steiner primary school in September! ! So this thread is fairly freaking me out and making me google alternative schools!

I know there are alot of seriously scary reasons behind the things the teachers do in steiner school and I disagree entirely with the reasons but that surely doesn?t mean the actual things themselves are bad right? The kids don?t know the reasons behind the way of teaching right?

Manatee, I?d love your opinion on my reasons for applying to the school. We are living in Ireland and feel there are alot of push factors away from mainstream school here more than anything. So for us these are the key things :

• Small class sizes: Max 18 in steiner school class but there are 30 kids per class with one teacher and no teaching assistants in the mainstream schools in Ireland

• Fun: In steiner he?ll have alot of outside time, he will be playing in the woods everyday, they do alot of art whereas in mainstream here they don?t really do much of that after the first two years. In this school he?d get to run around for a few extra years whereas in mainstream he?d have to sit down quietly and work (something I can?t imagine him doing, and seems right now at this age to be against his nature). My cousins son is v. Boisterous and gets in a lot of trouble at school because he won?t sit down quietly, we wanted to avoid this type of thing and felt that the steiner school let kids be kids for a few more years. I also read the ofsted reports for all the steiner schools in the uk (we don?t have any reports over here) and the one consistent thing was that the kids loved school. So the fun thing is a major thing for us, since we both hated school.

• Style of teaching: Steiner does more project based learning, whereas in schools here we don?t have this. Instead it?s just sit down direct from books style learning

• Homework: Homework from age 5 in mainstream here but not until age 9 in steiner

• Nice grounds: In a woods, whereas other schools just have a concrete yard

• Formality of class: Mainstream schools here have uniforms and old boring classrooms with pics of jesus and mary looking down on you.

I know they have weird spiritual beliefs but at the mo I don?t see any difference between that and the religious beliefs he?d be given in a mainstream school (something like 92% of primary schools in Ireland are catholic). So that is a huge factor. DH and I both went to catholic schools and hated them and swore we?d never do that to our kids.

I also last year became friends with a woman that went to steiner all the way up to 18. She was great, a laugh, loved school, normal but followed her dreams, which I really liked. Her brother also is like that. This friend sent her two boys to the same school she went to. Her kids are very very noisy and boisterous, but loved school, said they had lots of fun. So that kind of sealed the deal for us.

So, all in all, we?re completely against reasons behind the ways they teach, but if it results in kids enjoying school and coming out on a normal academic level with just a different weird spirituality that the one they?d be taught in mainstream here, well those are the reasons we applied.

Manatee, your thoughts would be really appreciated! People don't flame me, I haven't even sent him there yet!

AandO - they seem like solid reasons to me. At the end of the day it's just a faith school of sorts really - albeit a rather odd faith. I got an extreme dose of the Steiners as my mum was a teacher and very into the anthro stuff, but plenty of people just send their kids there and don't get into the woo.

IMO my school was not bad at all for younger kids, very active and creative with lots of space for play and imagination. I saw it work wonders for some with experience of having been bullied/other traumas too, who went from incommunicado to lively, happy kids.

It depends on the particular school and what's right for you and you DC really. You might want to look elsewhere as your DC get older, you might not. But don't panic - it sounds like your approach is very sane.