Failed our steiner toddler group

[Orangeflower7]

I was looking for a smaller more relaxed kind of toddler group for my ds (2.5). Got a bit fed up with the big busy groups lots of ride ons etc..so tried the steiner group. Just met one of the mums from it today who is 'sad it didn't work out for me' and am feeling a bit of a failure.

I'll explain a bit. It went on for ages and we all had to sit round the table and make a woolen spider which to be honest the children were to young to do- ds got frustrated and threw it away. It seemed that it was for the mums really, (craft) I found it stressful as I had to help make the activity so much whereas ds wanted to go play, and there was no choice of activity, all the mums were sat doing the craft activity so the children who were playing didn't have much input really.

The routine was like this (over 2 hrs) Craft-then (adults make snack which children couldn't eat just yet) -singing-then wash hands (line up) then-sit up and eat snack- then story.

I just found it too much direction and sitting down stuff for a 2 year old..although the (mostly little girls) other children seemed very obedient

It is a shame as it would have been a nice change...didn't find it very child centred though. Please tell me it's not just my ds is it, I do know a little about early years and the emphasis is a lot on play, (adult led and child initiated, choice and independence, how does that sit then with steiner?

So back to the big groups we go.

Sounds like a nice way out when faced with criticism.

"but does not promote Anthroposophy or endorse every aspect of it"

Of course they don't promote Anthroposophy, in the sense that they don't even mention it by name to the kids.

However, everyting they do is based on and governed by Anthroposophy, from the sing-song voices of the teachers to the morning prayer that talks about "the spirit of God" and "the soul who lives in me", from the TV ban to "no reading until milk teeth fall out, from the washed out watercolors to the curious absence of the color black in the kids' art.

To offer proof after Cote's comment:

The London Waldorf Seminar - Steiner education teacher training - www.waldorftraining.org.uk/courses.html

'a certain familiarity with or willingness to become familiar with the anthroposophical background of Waldorf education is also essential.'

AND:

'Anthroposophical study - study of Steiner?s education and other lectures to support and deepen understanding of Anthroposophy as the basis of Steiner Waldorf education. Essential texts are The Education of the Child in the Light of Anthroposophy and The Study of Man (The Foundations of Human Experience) and these have been supplemented at various times by The Kingdom of Childhood, Waldorf Education for Adolescents, The Spirit of the Waldorf School, Practical Advice to Teachers and Discussions with Teachers, as well as individual lectures and passages from other books and lecture cycles, chosen by individual tutors. Study of lectures on festivals is also an important part of the study curriculum. While these are not studied directly on the course, students are encouraged to read Steiner?s basic books Knowledge of the Higher Worlds (How to Know Higher Worlds), Theosophy and Occult Science (Esoteric Science) to gain a good grounding in Anthroposophy.'

These lectures are all Steiner's.

Read Knowledge of the Higher Worlds here: wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA010/English/AP1947/GA010_index.html

Maybe Wabbit can now tell us if she had to study Anthroposophy to become a Steiner teacher.

Tizian said 'Mumsnet has deleted 364 postings for different reasons from a number of discussions only in June. Only one of them was from restlessnative'.

Tizian where does the number 364 come from? Are you saying that in June you and the Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship took it upon yourselves to trawl through old threads, report posts to get them deleted because you think the content defamed Steiner?

Mumsnet can you clarify the total number of deleted posts relating to discussions on Steiner? Having been on MN for 8 years I estimate over 2000 comments (including whole threads which reached 1000) have been deleted over the years.

Tis very Big Brotherish.

no black in kids art this one tickles me. When I was researching Steiner schooling, before deciding to send DD to our local one, this was one of the criticisms I came across, with some very loopy explanations by the anti-Steiners as to why the colour black was banned in art lessons and dolls didn't have faces. The first thing I saw when entering a classroom was some art work with the colour black and the nursery has dolls - with faces.

Television wasn't even invented when Steiner was around, so he definitely didn't say 'Don't watch television', but I don't need an occultist, a philosopher, or a psychologist to tell me that raising a child with very limited TV viewing is a good thing, nor do I need them to tell me that allowing a child to learn to read in their own time is a good thing, my daughter has been around books since she was able to pick them up at a few months old, her favourite first toy was a book. There is a world of difference between not teaching reading and banning reading completely.

I don't think that Tizian does Steiner Waldorf any favours by their actions, but I am not going to judge a school or system on the behaviour of a couple of people. I will judge a school by what it actually produces, and the young adults leaving my daughter's school are a credit to themselves, their families and the Steiner system: bright, confident, capable, self-motivated and a large proportion go on to Oxbridge, so I guess the school is not discouraging academic achievement either.

I have read the anti-Steiner comments of some people, and I wonder if they had attended Catholic School or Boarding School would they have been similarly unhappy and spent the rest of their life being so evangelically anti-Catholic or anti-Boarding school? There is a huge amount of bullying in State schools, we seem to get an horrific story of a child committing suicide due to bullying every few months. Does anyone say "I'm not sending my child to Boarding school because there is a Boarding School Survivors organisation and you know those Catholics teach cannibalism, worship an instrument of torture and think anyone who eats a Big Mac on a Friday is bound for an eternity of hellfire and pitchforks . . . . ."

worldgonecrazy there IS a Steiner Survivors group though. Are you going to mock those people as well?

Most of the people writing about Steiner are writing about experiences with their dcs. Do you think they don't have a right to do so? Do you think they're lying? And if they do write about it, are they 'evangelical'? It strikes me that it's the supporters who properly justify that word.

There are people on this forum who send their dcs to Catholic schools or boarding schools or went to same who might want to comment, I know great examples of both, and of course there's the opposite. We're also aware of the scandal surrounding Catholic schools and the terrible impact on individuals (who were often not believed until much later). So some of us might find your comments tasteless. And the difference is that people know what Catholics believe - they don't know about anthroposophy because it's hidden - esoteric. Doesn't that strike you as a little odd?

What do you mean by 'a large proportion?' And if it's true (which I doubt, especially if compared to other private schools) is there something in the fact that many people who choose to send their dcs to a Steiner school are themselves well-educated or fairly wealthy, privileged...?

I notice your profile says you are: 'bolshy, self-opinionated, self-righteous, arrogant, centre of the universe'. Perhaps you'd like to have this taken into account?

restlessnative I know there is a Steiner Survivors Group, just as there is a Boarding School Survivors Group, but I don't see the same level of almost hysteria when mums discuss sending children to boarding school.

I feel that positive comments about Steiner schooling are just brushed off or ignored. There are some shit schools out there, some of them are State, some are boarding, some are Steiner. I am not going to tar an entire educational system because there are some bad ones out there. I think my daughter's Steiner school is great, yes it has a few faults, but the children, the teachers and the teaching are not one of them.

You say that people do know what Catholics believe, but I don't agree with that statement. Do people know that Catholics actually believe they are consuming the flesh and blood (as in icky gory stuff) when taking communion. Actually, no wait, most Catholics have an understanding that the actual transformation happens on an esoteric level rather than in actuality don't they? And rationally don't most Catholics know that eating meat on a Friday is not going to condemn them to eternal damnation despite that being one of the Church's teachings? Or maybe they don't? I'm an ex-Catholic and I'm never sure myself.

Maybe my comments are a little tasteless, but so are some of those I have read on here about Steiner education and those who have positive experiences of Steiner are lost amongst a few nay sayers and a lot of people taking the piss, cherry picking statements, or repeating some rubbish that they've read on another thread (such as faceless dolls). So what if Anthroposophists believe in reincarnation, so do some Buddhists and Hindus, are we going to take the piss out of Ghandi? Yes, some of Steiner's writings were rambly and a bit rubbish in places - have you read the Bible? And don't get me started on Gnomes when we live in a world full of "My Guardian Angel" tat being sold in every gift shop. . . . .

'almost hysteria'? I thought a lot of the comments here were funny. Or thoughtful. Hysteria is an odd word to use since it's so often used to denigrate the opinions of women. I am expressing my opinion in a forthright manner, you are hysterical etc. And why shouldn't people take the piss? It's an irreverent place, mumsnet (thank goodness).

'Are we going to take the piss out of Gandhi?' well, why not? His reputation would survive, and anyway, piss-taking aside, revising our understanding of historical figures is a good idea - in fact it's essential. (The Buddhist and Hindu concept of reincarnation differs from Steiner's btw). You have your own struggle with Catholicism, I can't comment on that. But an esoteric understanding of a ritual (commonly understood even by non-Catholics) is not the same as an esoteric belief system which is understood by hardly any of the parents in a school informed intimately by - in this case - anthroposophical doctrine.

The faceless dolls are not rubbish, worldgonecrazy and the gnomes have a significance far more important than tat, though they're a great source of humour for the generally irreverent here and elsewhere.

There are lots of different types of boarding school, but only one Waldorf brand. That's a big difference. But you don't have to justify your choice or your experience to anyone on a forum - it's your choice, these are your experiences, you have a perfect right to say how positive these are. You just shouldn't expect to shut up everyone who doesn't share your point of view.

Laughing at the idea that there is not the same amount of 'hysteria' on boarding school threads. Have you actually read any of them?!

worldgonecrazy - The problem is not so much the nutty beliefs of Steiner people, but that they hide these nutty beliefs from prospective parents. You know a Catholic school management will be Catholics and that your children will be taught in accordance to Catholic beliefs. In a boarding school, you know that your child will stay overnight. If you were to chose a Buddhist school, you would be told that it is a Buddhist school, that all teachers are Buddhists, and that your child will be taught according to Buddhist principles including reincarnation. However, all you will see and be told during your visits to a Steiner school will be a gentle pedagogy and a vegetable patch, vague half-truths about starting the day with poems and continuing it with dancing and baking bread.

I had three long appointments with the teacher and management of Steiner school here. At no point was there any mention of reincarnation, homeopathy, aversion to vaccines, spirit world, eurythmic dance to communicate with said spirit world, gnomes, a devil talking through electronic devices, artwork needing to be washy watercolors avoiding lines in order for child to remain open to the spirit world, not teaching children to read until their adult teeth come in because that means the spirit has fully reincarnated in their body.

Even to very specific and direct questions I asked, answers were given that avoided mentioning any of the above - in effect, lying through omission and deliberately hiding the true underlying nuttiness philosophy of their schools.

I find this very worrying.

cotedazur I'm fairly certain that parents at Catholic schools are also not told the truth about Catholic beliefs, probably because most Catholics don't actually believe them. You list a load of stuff as if that is what children are being taughter at Steiner schools when, quite clearly, it isn't.

It has been said on this thread that these beliefs are what informs the school pedagogy, but that is no better than saying the belief that unmarried mothers are bound for hellfire informs Catholic schools pedagogy, or British Islamic schools have a pedagogy based on 6 year old girls having to marry and have sex with a 54year old.

Perhaps the teachers you were asking were no better informed about some of the more way out supposed "Waldorf" beliefs than many Catholic teachers are when asked about some of the more way out supposed 'Catholic' beliefs.

As I said earlier, I judge a school by the young adults it turns out into the world, not the person/beliefs of the founder of the philosophy behind the pedagogy.

worldgonecrazy, the things CoteDAzur lists are illustrations of anthroposophical belief which is what the teachers are trained with; these beliefs inform what goes on in the classroom; from classifying children by body shape, skin pallor etc with the "temperaments", to apparently meditating with angels at college of teacher meetings.

Catholic teachers are trained in a more rational pedagogy, they aren't trained to refer to the bible when dealing with issues in the classroom, whereas Steiner teachers resort to "Steiner says' in many, if not most, instances. It really isn't comparable.

Are you saying that Steiner teachers who are required to study Steiner's texts on education and Anthroposophy in general don't believe any of it? Are you saying that with a straight face?

The "stuff" I listed is what actually happens in Steiner schools - children are taught not any dance but Steiner's weird Eurythmy dance that is supposed to help them communicate with the spirit world. Please don't insult our intelligence and say that dance means nothing or that teachers are not aware of its significance. Children say not a variety of poems in the morning but one single poem/prayer that talks about the souls that live in them. Again, please don't claim this isn't about reincarnation or that teachers are not aware of its significance. Children are not taught to read before their adult teeth fall out. Again, please don't claim that this has nothing to do with Steiner saying the soul isn't properly reincarnated in their little bodies until this point or that teachers are oblivious to why they are doing it.

This is nowhere near comparable to something as openly discussed and widely known as Catholicism. I have been brought up in a Muslim country and never had a day of formal education in Christianity but even I know about Catholic beliefs like virgin birth and transubstantiation. While we would not choose a Catholic school for DC, I can't say that they misrepresent their nutty beliefs or that they hide them from prospective parents. That is what Steiner teachers & management do.

What I am trying to say is that the people I know no more believe that the devil talks out of the TV than a Catholic believes that he is actually munching a piece of Jesus's thigh during communion, or an Islamic teacher believes it is right for a 7 year old girl to have sex with an old man.

Maybe some Steiner followers do believe the actual devil talks out of the TV (though as I said, TV wasn't around when Steiner was writing, maybe he was prophesying Channel 4's Big Brother?) but there are weird people in all faiths and philosophies.

That morning verse does mention a soul but it is not a secret, nor is a belief in a soul that strange, lots of religions believe that mankind has a soul and quite a few people also believe in angels in various shapes and forms, from the Christian Archangels right through to the new age "Angel in my pocket" type tat I mentioned earlier. I actually think that belief in angels is quite mainstream, otherwise the shops wouldn't make the tat to sell in the first place. I also don't think that the Waldorf idea about reincarnation is any weirder than the Hindu or Buddhist belief in reincarnation.

My daughter's school makes no secret that it is a Steiner school with a christian ethos, and here is the morning prayer in all its glorious normality:

The Sun with loving light
Makes bright for me each day,
The soul with spirit power
Gives strength unto my limbs,
In sunlight shining clear
I revere, Oh God,
The strength of humankind,
Which Thou so graciously
Has planted in my soul,
That I with all my might,
May love to work and learn.
From Thee stream light and strength
To Thee rise love and thanks.

Actually, many if not most Catholics believe in transubstantiation. One of my closest friends is an example.

You are woefully misinformed about Islam if you think if its teachings in any way condone sex with 7 year olds of either sex.

It's slightly different "believing" in something as opposed to using it furtively in classroom decisions don't you think? I don't think anyone is questioning people's beliefs worldgonecrazy, just whether it's appropriate to use beliefs such as karma, reincarnation etc as a tool in the classroom. Personally I think it's dangerous.

Hi again. Coming from the perspective of not being a steiner person, just the person who started this thread, however also being a trainer teacher who has also studied early years..it sounds right that we need to be careful what the teachers actually think/believe. I have been taught about eurythmy (sp) as a way into teaching handwriting with little ones, this was though a state school it was as an exercise, kind of warm up to do with the children. Also on a parenting course I heard of the benefits for behaviour, of singing through rituals in the day.At the stiener playgroup they sand 'now it's time to tidy up' but also 'mother of the fairy tale take us to your shining land'. But underlying beliefs/principles are important and I've seen through these groups it does tend to attract people with strange beliefs, such as for example I was asked when my child was extremely ill with pneumonia whether I really felt I needed to go to hospital (em yes) Now I'm not saying that is due to their steiner-ness, I haven't read enough about it to know the medical stuff. It does seem to attract people who get carried away with 'alternative' stuff though. Whether those types are in the teaching staff though I don't know. Wouldn't Ofsted pick up on these things though. Wonder with the free schools thing they might be under more regulation? Or not?

It is not just any mention of "soul". This is the French version of the morning prayer:

Je regarde le monde
Ou brille le soleil
Scintille les étoiles
Reposent les pierres
Les plantes vivent et y croissent
Les animaux sensibles y vivent
Et l'homme doué d'ame
Acueille en lui l'esprit
Je regarde l'âme
Qui vit dedans mon être
L'esprit de dieu rayonne
Dans le soleil et l'âme
Dans les monde au dehors
Et dans l'âme au dedans
Vers toi esprit de dieu
Je me tourne et demande
Que la force et la grace
D'apprendre et travailler
Grandissent dans mon être

Especially suspect is "I look at the soul / who lives inside my being/body" (lines 9 & 10). Not even "my soul" (mon ame), but "the soul who lives inside my body" (l'ame qui vit dedans mon etre). Anybody really want to argue these kids are not being taught about reincarnation at all?

It goes on to say "The spirit of God radiates / from the sun and the soul / in the worlds outside / and the soul inside / towards you, spirit of God, I turn and ask / that the force and grace / to learn and work / grow in my being"

As a lifelong atheist, I cannot begin to put into words how it boils my blood to think that my 2 year old DD would be made to say this brain-numbing, pseudo-religious, hippy prayer every morning

So why, in your opinion, did Steiner teacher tell me that they start the day "with poems" rather than frankly talking about this prayer and their beliefs in reincarnation of souls etc?

cotedazur are you unaware of the age difference of the Prophet Mohammed and his second wife, or that the marriage was consumated? I have not said that Muslims believe that it was right, but it was one of the beliefs of the founder of the Islamic faith - Mohammed - that it was a perfectly okay thing to do.

The Catholics I know believe that transubstantiation takes place on an esoteric level, none of them believe they are munching Jesus's thigh. If your friends believe they are then that's just weird.

I have no problem with my child learning about reincarnation. She will choose her own path/religion when she is old enough. The school makes no secret of its christian ethos.

One would hope ofsted would pick up any worries; but where Steiner schools are concerned, they have handed over to The Schools Inspection Service for most Steiner schools; (there are some like Elmfield who haven't been inspected for a while who may well have them next time)
The schools inspection service cover Steiner schools and....Plymouth Bretheren schools. Hmm...

Re Mohammad & Aisha - If you really knew anything about this other than anti-Islam hate-talk, you would know that (1) this was a marriage of political significance, made to solidify Mohammad's alliance with her father Abu Bakr, who then went on to become the first Caliph, (2) he married her when she was 6 for this purpose but the marriage was not consummated until she reached puberty, and most importantly, (3) while all this is terrifying and incomprehensible to us, it was completely normal in their society at the time.

"The Catholics I know believe that transubstantiation takes place on an esoteric level"

This is the second time you say this, and now I am sure that you don't know what the word "esoteric" means. Let me give you a hint: It doesn't mean "symbolic".

Yawn.

Esoteric, from the Greek "esôterikos" meaning within, or pertaining to that which is inward/hidden, i.e. the transubstantiation is a mystery revealed only to those who are initiate, and on a hidden/inward level.

And yes, child sex was completely normal at the time Mohammed was alive. I used the analogy as people use personal attacks on Steiner to attack the Steiner pedagogy.

I would not claim that Steiner education suits all children, nor that all Steiner schools are great bastions of education. There is a degree of autonomy within the system which means there will be very good Steiner schools and there will probably be some bad ones, just as there are good and bad state schools. There is no 'one size fits all' and some people have had bad experiences with a particular steiner, just as many people have had bad experiences with some State schools.