Failed our steiner toddler group

[Orangeflower7]

I was looking for a smaller more relaxed kind of toddler group for my ds (2.5). Got a bit fed up with the big busy groups lots of ride ons etc..so tried the steiner group. Just met one of the mums from it today who is 'sad it didn't work out for me' and am feeling a bit of a failure.

I'll explain a bit. It went on for ages and we all had to sit round the table and make a woolen spider which to be honest the children were to young to do- ds got frustrated and threw it away. It seemed that it was for the mums really, (craft) I found it stressful as I had to help make the activity so much whereas ds wanted to go play, and there was no choice of activity, all the mums were sat doing the craft activity so the children who were playing didn't have much input really.

The routine was like this (over 2 hrs) Craft-then (adults make snack which children couldn't eat just yet) -singing-then wash hands (line up) then-sit up and eat snack- then story.

I just found it too much direction and sitting down stuff for a 2 year old..although the (mostly little girls) other children seemed very obedient

It is a shame as it would have been a nice change...didn't find it very child centred though. Please tell me it's not just my ds is it, I do know a little about early years and the emphasis is a lot on play, (adult led and child initiated, choice and independence, how does that sit then with steiner?

So back to the big groups we go.

Just caught up on all the links. Those in the know, was there ever any debate about why one poster was banned and yet another was allowed to continue? This stuff leaves me cold.

goodness.

I'm sure Wabbit is absolutely genuine, and in fact not unusual in her attitude (and with respect, ignorance) amongst teachers at the fringes of this movement. She (or he?) can't be held responsible for the activity of certain of its more zealous supporters. Sadly there's no getting away from anthroposophy or the nature of the pedagogy, and as small groups develop, join the SWSF and become bigger schools, the anthroposophical influence is inevitable. That's after all the point of Steiner education, however softly-softly the approach of the SWSF mentors at the beginning. I've known kindergarten teachers like you, Wabbit, and I've seen them try to adapt the system. My dc's young kindy teacher told me 'I don't like some of the things they believe, I don't understand them, they're not right,' I wish I'd asked her what she meant or taken it more seriously. It took me years to take anthroposophy seriously, years to work out what had happened and why people behaved as oddly as they did.

I don't want to tease you about neurology, Wabbit - except that there isn't any research substantiating Steiner's theories, which are frankly loony tunes. There are a great many early years teachers on this forum who have differing opinions about school readiness, and mums with dcs who learnt to read at 4 and some at 6 who are all perfectly fine, but no one but Steiner teachers talk about the incarnating child. If you are not ok with the incarnating child, Wabbit, or are not sure what it means, it may be a problem career-wise.

And yes, Wabbit, you may not think you need to take it seriously but the parents who trust you and your colleagues with their dcs have a right to expect that you do. Sorry to sound so harsh - I'm sure you're acting with the very best of intentions, just as my dc's kindy teacher and many of the other Steiner teachers I've known were acting, they believed, in the interests of the children. It's just that many of their good intentions were, and are, misguided and in some cases - there's no other word for it - dangerous.

I was wondering the same thing, Madam. It seems strange that MN would ban one single issue poster while allowing another to remain.

MadameBoo, sorry just getting my links together and archived as they do tend to disappear. In brief here is an explanation from Justine in response to previous posts and whole threads disappearing Tizian in cooperation with the SWSF

A request was also made from the former SWSF communications officer asking for teachers and parents to join him in posting replies to anti-Steiner Waldorf threads SWSF newsletter here again they threaten to sue

Another Steiner Waldorf Executive member in the most recent SWSF newsletter refers to former parents and pupils who have written about their negative experiences of the schools as 'the mad hatters tea party' here

More here

sorry, link where they threaten to sue is mentioned in the SWSF's most recent newsletter referring to the 'mad hatters tea party'.

yep. And only certain individuals flex legal muscles, British libel laws have a chilling effect when they do. 'Tizian' - and not those banned - threatened to threaten and appeared to represent a movement. I'd be surprised if mumsnet deleted anyone on this thread, all the posts from those discussing Steiner ed are fair comment and no one has libelled an individual - except 'Tizian' - and he knows the person he's attacking won't take action.

I'm sure that his behaviour - demanding so many posts were deleted - backfired in the end.

I still don't understand why Tizian wasn't also banned?

(Am I just being thick?)

TheRealMBJ if the grounds were that the others were 'single issue campaigners', then surely, as a very obvious single issue campaigner with a very clear agenda he should have been banned! He was posting under a different name at the time, so maybe he slipped through with a new identity? Just a thought.

You really do not come out of that blog or this thread looking good, Tizian. You look like a person who is hitting below the belt. Because that is what you are doing to Ms Hamberg. Now you say she is 'somewhat manic'? An appalling and most uncivil tactic. What you have written says far more about you than you seem to realise.

I think the synapse pruning research was done by someone in the University of Chicago.... Yes, Peter Huttenlocher has done a lot of work in this area. A lot of his research is on the web. Huttenlocher is one of the leading researchers in this area, if not the leading researcher, and has no steiner links afaik. US schools tend to start subjects such as reading later than British schools do, based on the ideas of Piaget and others early in the 20th century. Piaget's work was not based on neuroscience but on psychology, whereas Huttenlocher is a neurobiologist. A roundup of research on synapses.

A quote "It takes severely deprived environments and highly unnatural situations to prevent these skills and abilities from developing, in both children and animals. No doubt, in some way, the development of these capacities supports future school learning, but currently, we have little idea, certainly no idea based on neuroscientific research, how the emergence of these specieswide capacities relates to later school learning. We do not know much about how these capacities contribute to the acquisition of culturally transmitted knowledge and skills, like reading, writing, mathematics, and science." Any claims for the steiner ed approach based on neuroscience are probably not based on neuroscience but on intuition or psychology which are not the same things. The neuroscience jury is still out wrt the application of current wisdom in the area to best practices in schools.

I like the later approach to formal learning personally, and I think trying to teach every 4 year old to read using phonics in the UK is a bit misguided. My DCs had the usual American experience of the later introduction to formal education and the approach seemed to work, in an ordinary school. For some children, the late start is beneficial. For others, including my DCs who had basically taught themselves to read from 3.5 to about 5, there was a certain amount of reinforcement of material they had figured out for themselves which did them no harm that I could see.

mathanxiety fascinating.

Formal schooling in South Africa (where I grew up) started much later than over here when I was a child. We only entered year 1, the year one turned 7 and were formally taught to read then. Some kids learnt earlier, but there was no expectation to, and it certainly hasn't done me any harm

However, that has nothing to do with Steiner etc.

On the subject of bannings etc; that is exactly what I thought, restless

This thread has been a total eye-opener! I always quite liked the sound of Steiner - late start, plenty of arty, crafty, outdoors and nature stuff but a lot of their philosophy sounds totally bonkers.

I think any group which tries to stamp out dissent so hard must have a lot to hide. Does anyone know what they do with the IP addresses? [slightly nervous person who clicked on the links out of interest and is now checking my firewall emoticon]

I have no idea, i will ask my ingeniuos it hubby when he gets home. I hope they enjoy mine though, last place it showed as Romania!

Am popping in on this a bit late in the day and apologise if my posts are haphazard (my Dad in hospital a couple of days ago).

orangeflower7 you didn't fail; you sussed that they aren't "child centred", they are "what Steiner dictated". You are to be heartily congratulated for taking a few weeks to twig, (some of us staggered on in disbelief, because, well, it is quite unbelievable that schools are run with this anthroposophical backdrop to guide them)
Tizian, the way you pathologize and personalise is frankly contemptible and dispiteous. What Zooey writes is some of the most incisive and honest writing on the web; she is witty, true and engaging. What you write about her (and others) is heaped with jealous spite and lashings of self promoting gibberish trying transparently to cover your back. Fail.
mathanxiety the stuff on Huttenlocher is fascinating. Thanks.

TheRealMBJ, in response as to why Tizian hasn't been banned - I can only guess that nobody has asked for him to be banned, I also think the majority of those who use Mumsnet believe in free speech - unlike Tizian who appears to have demanded a post be deleted by Restlessnative on the 17th of June.

Hi Northern sorry to hear about your dad. xx

oh, there you go - mumsnet have deleted a link to Prof Colquhoun's blog, I imagine because 'Tizian' has told them to remove it. You're not allowed to see it, but as free-thinking adults if you google DC's Improbable Science you will find it easily.

David Colquhoun is a respected scientist who writes for The Times and the BMJ. He is also a well-known supporter of Libel Reform.

"... Tizian who appears to have demanded a post be deleted by Restlessnative on the 17th of June."

Not me.

"mumsnet have deleted a link to Prof Colquhoun's blog, I imagine because 'Tizian' has told them to remove it"

Not me either.

Mumsnet has deleted 364 postings for different reasons from a number of discussions only in June. Only one of them was from restlessnative.

there are more of you Tizian? How sad for the families involved. You must be proud of your educational movement and its many achievements

It would be laughable if it wasn't about children, but unfortunately it is.

Tizian - re "The one responsible for the (French government reports on cults featuring Steiner schools), Jacques Guyard was sued for libel, and foud guilty by the Justice Court of Paris"

I was hoping one of you Steiner drones would bring this up.

That case was appealed a year later and Guyard was cleared of slander charges with an assessment of 'good faith', and with the statement that the judge could not be the judge of the quality of Guyard's commission's work.

Basically, the appeal court says the previous court was wrong to doubt the seriousness of Guyard commission's report on cults (incl. Anthroposophie/Steiner schools).

The appeal court then adds that this movement is in fact considered to be a cult not only by this commission but also by a government commission in Belgium, a 1997 report on "renseignements generaux" (not sure how to translate this), and many specialists of cult movements.

I'm not a great translator, but you get the idea:

Le Tribunal avait mis en doute le sérieux de l'enquête. A tort, selon la Cour d'appel, car "le sérieux de l'enquête ne peut être mis en doute puisque la commission d'enquête a recueilli pendant six mois témoignages et documents sur le mouvement sectaire, notamment sur l'anthroposophie".

La Cour ajoute que ce mouvement est "d'ailleurs considéré comme une secte non seulement par la commission d'enquête française, mais aussi par une commission d'enquête belge, un rapport des Renseignements généraux de 1997 et les spécialistes du mouvement sectaire".

Il était "légitime pour M. Guyard de présenter le rapport d'une commission d'enquête qu'il présidait", explique la Cour, qui relève que l'expression de M. Guyard, commentant l'émergence de cette nouvelle secte, était "rudente" et dépourvue d'animosité.

www.vigi-sectes.org/articles/art-juridique.html

Meanwhile, French government's report on cults operating in their country featuring Steiner schools and Anthroposophy is still on the French Parliament's website.

Hello again. Just wanted to post the following from the Steiner Waldolf Schools Fellowship, noting particularly the last line. Just wanted to add to the debate really. So does that mean the Steiner educators may range from 'woo' to quite sensible...

Who was Rudolf Steiner?

Rudolf Steiner (1861 ? 1925) was an innovative academic born in Austria whose ideas founded the basis of Anthroposophy.

He applied his ideas to education as well as agriculture, medicine, architecture and social reform. The Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship acknowledges Rudolf Steiner as the founding inspiration of modern day Steiner schools, but does not promote Anthroposophy or endorse every aspect of it.

It doesn't promote/endorse it - but it's educational methods are informed by it. Surely Steiner's ideas are they reason why they do the things they do. Not sure how they can distance themselves from it.

Yes i know Rita. Just thought it sounded like what Wabbit was saying really. It's all a but vague really isn't it.