Dad seeking advice...

[dadnew]

Hi,

I am a new dad (baby now nearly 7 weeks old) and a new member on mumsnet. I am not sure whether this is the right place to seek advice on this topic so please go easy on me!

My wife and I have been struggling with putting together a routine for the baby and I think it is taking a toll on our relationship. The baby wants to feed more or less constantly and sleeps much less than the books/forums usually state (9-10 hours vs general guideline of 14-16 hours). This is obviously resulting in a lack of sleep for my wife which I acknowledge very well.

However, I feel that I am under a constant barrage of snide remarks around how I am not being helpful enough. I try to do the chores around the house; as much as I possibly can after a full day at work. My wife is exclusively breastfeeding but I have told her that we should consider topping up with formula - will give her more sleep as well as me having an opportunity to give late night feed. She is very much against the idea of formula but is ok to express a bottle a day however, that still means she has to spend time expressing = less sleep.

She is forever in a grumpy mood and it gets even worse over the weekends. I try to put up with her unfavourable remarks most of the time but I feel that they are really getting to me now. Just the other day she made a comment "You are not the father I expected you to be" and I felt horrible, to say the least!

We love our baby to bits and this isn't a complaint about my wife either. Her side of the story may give a different perspective and I am not saying I am always right. I am sure I am doing something wrong too! The point is both of us need to do things differently for our sake as well for the baby, but I am not sure what.

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

DadNew

Summer - really? I hate drinking tea when I'm eating - can't do it.
I like something cold.

Dadnew
in that case, it might be worth taking a glass of juice as wellas a cup of tea with the snack.

Quenelle... that's not silly, that's logical. I used to sit in a simmering ball of rage if dp left the remote out of reach, and he always wore headphones in the other room so I couldn't even call him back!

One of the biggest fights I ever had with dp was when ds2 was little. He woke up and dp brought him downstairs for me and when he went back down I carried him back up to find dp had closed the bedroom door behind him so I had to try and juggle a 5 month old sleeping baby in my arms whilst opening the squeakiest, stickiest door known to man with my elbow. Baby woke up... I exploded at dp.

It's the little things... the lack of thinking things through or considering the consequences of admittedly trivial acts which inevitably make the breastfeeding mothers night that little bit harder.

Do you know I don't think I so much as smiled at my long suffering DH for the first 3 months. I was evil and snappy and tireder than I ever thought possible. Our relationship took a back seat for a long time (we were older parents which makes that much easier).
You get the worst time of day. Babies seem harder to cope with from 4pm onwards if I recollect and then there is the night shift still to do. Both of mine were fully breastfed and I don't think anyone warned me that feeding really takes over your life for those first few months.
By the time you are coming home from work your wife is getting desperate. It sounds like you are doing everything you can to help.
....and by the way ,the second one is much easier.

Also if her mother is dead she may be feeling odd about becoming a mother herself and projecting some of that anxiety on to your parenting.

Oh, I'm laughing wryly! I was your wife dadnew, I really was. DH couldn't do anything right. It was so awful for the first 2-3 months, I really didn't enjoy it at all.

Why was I so horrible? I was absolutely shattered but I also felt this heavy responsibility weighing down on me, I think because I was ebfing. The buck stopped with me and no one else could really help. I needed time away from baby to get a sense of being me again (and not a feeding machine). I found it really helped when someone took my DC away for some time so that I could do something nice (NOT chores). I used to wander for a coffee at a local cafe with a trashy mag, it really made a difference.

Also, it did and does get sooooo much better. I would say things really got back to normal after 6 months when DC started to sleep through. It probably seems like ages away now but really isn't in the grand scheme of things. Now, 18 months down the line, I feel human again, my DH and I go out every fortnight (we also don't have relatives locally so have a babysitter) and our relationship is as good if not better than it was before DC was born.

So, please be patient!

One other thing that helped us: I was really anti dummies but we got so desperate in the evenings I tried one and never looked back. DC clearly needed to suck and wasn't really feeding. We used to put him in his bouncy chair with his dummy while we had dinner together and he'd sit there sucking happily. At 6 months he refused it and hasn't used it since. It was a godsend for us although I know others wouldn't agree.

Congratulations on your new baby. And good for you helping out as much as possible. The best things are getting laundry and cleaning done for her, EFB is very tiring and if you have a clingy baby it feels awful hearing them scream whilst frantically trying to clean/tidy.

As several people have said, never mention the formula again, you're insinuating she can't cope. When she's feeding make her comfy, bring drinks and food to her. I know you're working and she's at home and it might feel like you're doing absolutely EVERYTHING, but whilst she's doing her best to look after your baby she needs someone to look after her and tell her she's amazing. I do think you're being a bit unreasonable to want thanks and kisses for being a good dad and partner, you should just want to do it. Once she's less knackered I'm sure she'll show her appreciation more. And don't stress about what the books say.

Hi

Congratulations from me as well!

My relationship with DH really suffered during the first year with a baby. I was so completely exhausted, shattered, hormonal everything....

Please just give it time, it will get better, and will in fact be better than it ever was before. You will probably notice a big difference at around 3-4 months, which is when the baby becomes a bit more interesting and may start to settle into a routine.

In the meantime, if I could've given my husband one piece of advice at that time, it would be NOT to give ME any advice or suggestion how to make things easier. What I needed was a platonic hug, lots of cups of tea, someone to do the shopping/stack the dishwasher.

It will get easier. x

Congratulations on your little one Dadnew. Let me reassure you that just by posting here you have shown yourself to be a great husband and father. You are probably not really doing anything wrong, you're just faced with a woman who is truly and utterly exhausted. BFing is so so so tiring especially in the first few weeks. Add sleep deprivation to that and chances are your wife is running on about 10% of the energy she had pre-baby. On top of that she probably still feels stiff and sore from the birth, looks in the mirror and sees dark circles round her eyes and a flabby and is possibly missing her job (if she worked) and her old life. Recipe for extreme grumpiness! I

My one piece of advice is take initiative Do not wait for your wife to ask you to do things, just do them. Put a wash on, clean the kitchen (properly) hoover, be busy when she's busy, don't just sit back and watch her feeding. I nearly strangled my DH when DS was tiny because he said he was tired one saturday after he'd spent all fucking day on the computer playing games and I'd spent the entire day feeding DS (he did nappies and that was it). He just didn't understand that I wasn't relaxing like he was I was busy and switched and getting no break at all. I really resented it. On top of that I knew no housework was getting done and I was bloody fucked if I was going to order DH around as well as looking after DS. That was a step too far. Luckily DH got the message and is much better now although it still pisses me off when he huffs around the place like the world is on his shoulders when I'm so tired I could cry.

Congratulations on the birth of DS.
Well done on seeking advice.

I will echo the advice of all the above. This is normal. EBF is hard. I gave up at 7 weeks convinced I was doing it 'wrong' as DD fed almost non-stop,which led to me hardly leaving the house as she was permanently on the boob - and I was heartbroken. Please don't encourage your wife to supplement with FF if that's not what she wants to do. What to you seems like a reasonable suggestion to try and help her get some sleep, will (probably) to her in her sleep deprived state seem like you want to stick a neon sign above her head saying 'You're not good enough, your milk is crap, you're rubbish at breastfeeding and clearly starving our son. You are a BAD MOTHER!' Which of course, any logical person knows is utter bollocks, but when you've had crap sleep for weeks and you're physically exhausted and your hormones are all over the shop, you don't always take things as they were intended.

Remember - TTSP: This Too Shall Pass. And it does. Eventually. Just hang on in there (and enjoy DS!) :)

I just wanted to re-iterate a couple of things. Sounds like you are both doing a fab job, do not worry about routine and do not mention formula!

My DD is 12 weeks old and only now do I feel like the fog is lifting. It's been really hard since DH has gone back to work. He works for the NHS so does shifts, he's out the house for 12hrs at least 5days a week. He's also am amazing dad and helps out all he can but that didn't stop me snapping at him. It's the sleep deprivation taking over. However, in the last couple of weeks, DD has settled more and things are improving so I feel like we've reconnected.

I know you only suggested formula because you want to help take the pressure of your wife but it does make her feel undermined. My mum was always saying things like your BM isn't good enough quality..blah blah...and it drove me potty. Our DD cluster fed for 3wks from 8pm-3 and DH felt so useless as he couldn't help me but just doing things like making tea etc is appreciated ( even if she doesn't show it right now). Give her a kiss and cuddle and just see how she's doing ( when the baby is asleep not when on the boob)!

Doing boring household things will really help ESP loading the washing machine, prepreparing lunch, cooking dinner...when she is on her own with the baby all day just taking a shower is an accomplishment!

Also agree with above (and I didn't believe it when I was told it) this too will pass.

Congratulations form me too! Welcome to the jungle that is being a parent.

she knows what a great dad you are. She's just more exhausted

Agree, perhaps to exhausted to think about you right now! Unfair as that seems, her world is (having to) revolve around this little being so much right now. This little baby thinks it is still part of it's mum, it doesn't realise that t is a separate being yet & won't for a while, so your LO needs all the cuddles/closeness it can get right now! hence why 7 weeks is too soon for a routine.

I second the poster who suggested making a lunch for her & leaving her some snacks. My life would have been so much easier if I didn't have to worry about fixing food, would have been more time for sleep!

If she expresses, do you offer to do that feed for her? I have been caught up in the constant feeding thing & it is hard, dh just doing one feed every now & then made a difference.

The juice/tea thing...just ask her what she likes, can't go wrong with that!

I know it is hard to be on the end of all this, but in all fairness, I bet many men aren't, at one time or another (I know dh was). As you grow into our new roles your life will get easier.

Heres my twopenceworth. Your baby is 7 weeks old, do not expect it to do anything other than feed and nap for an couple of hours at a time. You sound really caring and onboard so what can you do to help?

Firstly, your wife has chosen breastfeeding. Do not mention the top up formula idea again - I remember my dh (darling husband ) thought this was the holy grail and answer to my complete exhaustion. Everytime he mentioned it I heard "you are not good enough", but he just wanted a solution.

Like others have said, you can help her by:

getting her drinks, cushions, muslins, the remote control, phone or whatever she needs to do feed the baby comfortably.

taking the baby out for a walk, or drive in the car, so she can get a nap when she is at the end of her tether.

staying positive, it will get easier and it will make you stronger as a couple and a family. When my dh annoys me now I always remember how supportive he was back when my babies were newborn, couldnt have done it without him so he earned massive brownie points back then

oh, and welcome to MN, keep posting on here, its invaluable.

I've not read all the other posts, so forgive me if I repeat what they've said. I have 7 month old twins, and I can honestly say I am shocked by the affect babies have had on my relationship with my husband. We virtually fell apart in the space of two months, despite talking and talking and trying to help each other. Things are repairing themselves now, but I suspect some things will reoccur and rankle for a good while yet.

With us, I spent 24/7 with our babies, mostly breastfeeding them (which has the added irritation, aside from being technically tricky at the start, of being physically knackering while it looks like you're reclining with your feet up. I wanted to yell "I'm working really hard here" everytime I fed while DH washed up etc). DH went to work and then came home and did everything for the house. He did the shopping, cooked dinner, cleaned the house, did the washing, paid the bills, spoke to the neighbours - literally everything that wasn't directly baby related. I don't think it could have been any other way as I honestly didn't have a chance to do those things. He would then soothe and pat our babies from 9pm til 11pm so I could get 2 hours sleep. We did that for 2 months.

The result of this (unavoidable) split of work was that he felt I didn't trust him with the babies and didn't want in our 'nursery cacoon'. I felt that he didn't love us or want to spend any time with us. We discussed these feelings endlessly (normally in tears), but were completely unable to change the way either of us felt. I can explain why we couldn't change things, but we couldn't, despite both really wanting to.

I only have a minor appreciation of how/why my husband felt the way he did, but I can tell you why I think I struggled. I think I was suddenly a mum, and a stay-at-home person, and working harder than I can ever imagine anyone working, all on virtually no sleep. This combination of not knowing what you're doing (particularly when you care so very much that you get it right), plus the feeling that you should aomehow be running the house while you also look after the baby, leaves you really doubting your abilities. At work, my boss used to make it clear when he was impressed or disappointed, but as a mum, I get no feed back or thanks for my efforts. I found that really hard. I became convinced that DH though I wasn't pulling my weight and that he was disappointed in how I coped with the babies. When I tried to explain that I needed him to say 'well done' sometimes, he said he didn't know any other babies to compare ours to, so he didn't know whether I was doing a good job! So that request backfired then!

In contrast, he was working so very hard running our lives and going to work, while all I could do was moan at him for not spending more time with us. He felt unappreciated (and knackered).

Having explained all that, I don't know what the answer is! I can only suggest talking to each other, complimenting each other, and forgiving each other when you feel attacked. And I can say things started to improve after about 2.5 months (as I started to feel more capable and take over some of the house things, and the babies became less dependent on me.

Good luck, and know you're not the first to be where you are. Others have been there and their marriages survived!

We've slowly changed things now, basically by me gradually taking over 'house' things as I can fit them in.

I am LOVING the idea of plating up a really nice lunch for your wife before you go off to work in the morning. That would have made such a huge difference to my quality of life if I'd had that to look forward to!

Once again, thank you all for the additional responses. Most of you have been very supportive and I appreciate that.

I get the point and will just have to chin up about the remarks. Also, I can do things unprompted so all your advice will go a long way in making me a better dad.

A question ? Are there any dads on mumsnet as well (it claims ?by parents for parents?) or is this an exclusive mum?s community? Just interested in a man?s perspective too..that?s all.

there are a few dads - TheAtomicBum is one, Unquietdad, ABetaDad (but I can't remember what his new nickname is)

There's a special topic for dads, dadsnat

a lot of the dads seem to spend moretime on there than on the main topics.

Oh that's me!

Hi Dadnew. Congratulations on the new arrival. This story sounds qquite familiar.

When we had our first DC five years ago, the first couple of months were horrible. Sleep: Same thing. The book is not lying, but you should know that an exclusively breastfed baby will sleep less, because they need to eat more often. Don't worry about topping up with formula, you're DW's milk supply might dry up, whixh she won't want if she is really into BFing.

At about the same point (7 weeks) I remember wanting to fall asleep where I stood. Our DS had colic, so neither of us were getting sleep as (for some reason) only I could get his wind up at night, and obviously only she could feed. But I asked another Dad, who assured me that it will get better after about 2 months. At least, things begin to get better. And slowly things do.

As for the snide remarks, we had the same thing. Were were constantly arguing for the first time in our relationship. The only reason for this was plain and simple exhaustion, and we actually laughed after a big row about who was getting more sleep when we realised that neither of us had had more than 3 hours sleep for over a week.

Don't panic to much - you sound like you're doing just fine, really. Those first couple of months, especially if it's your first time, are really difficult. I haven't read all the adivce, but it's normally pretty good. Good luck!

Congratulations on the baby, dadnew, and well done for being brave enough to post in Mumsnet and hear the whole gamut of reactions! Also very good that you thought of asking other mums for advice.

It's funny but your story could be tons of mums I know.....and also my husband's story about us. New mothers definitely pick on their DHs more at this stage as they are desperate to do things right for the baby (by the 2nd baby you know how to do things and don't get as stressed about it). Actually my friend still picks on her DH and their DS is 4...oops....but he seems very happy to be henpecked (ok, that's another story).

She's probably a lot grumpier (maybe even meaner) than she was before because she's so sleep deprived.

Definitely don't mention formula, but a better idea might be to express milk and store for you to bottle feed. I know you worry about the time spent expressing and sterilising the bottles, but the fact is that if she is nursing the baby all the time, it means her sleep is no more than 3 hours or at a push four hours at a stretch which has terrible effects on a person's energy and mood - ah, see, you've already seen the effect on her mood.

Expressing means she may be very busy for one particular time of the day (but then she is up anyway at that time - for me it was first thing in the morning, when the supply seemed the most), but if you give one bottle, it means that during that feed time she can go to sleep. This means that if she hands baby over to you after the previous feed and wakes up only when the next feed is due, it means she will have rested anything between 4 and a half to 6 hours. She'll may even want to check on your bottle feeding technique (maybe even that you are heating it up and washing your hands right - just humour her - we have all been there!) ....but trust me she'll wake up in a much, much better mood. Make sure she goes to sleep immediately after her feed is finished, instead of hovering around doing things. The other good argument for expressing is that it helps to relieve engorgement if she gets any, and if she were ever to be ill and couldn't nurse the baby (eg because of medication), your baby will still have breastmilk instead of formula. The best time for doing this bottle feed is around the 7 to 10pm time, when you are still awake enough, and she is tired enough to welcome the extra sleep. It's the number of hours of unbroken sleep in one go that makes a difference to her energy and mood, not the number of hours of interrupted sleep in total during 24hours. When we started this, it made a whole world of difference. It is also possible to express more than you need, so that she isn't expressing and then all the milk gets used up within the same day. You can freeze expressed milk. (Gina Ford's "contented baby" book has probably the best explanation and advice about expressing, but don't read about the routines - unless that is what your wife wants to do - because the routines can drive new parents bonkers.....the inflexibility is a bit unrealistic) P.S a manual pump is as good as an electric pump at getting milk, it's all down to the individual mum.

Good luck with everything, you're doing fine. But yes, your story is more commonplace than you imagine. (And I doubt very much that two years down the line when she's had more sleep, she'll agree with her gripe about you not being a good father. She'll prob say then that you were v good).

Sorry, typo in second last paragraph, line 4 should read "She may want to check on your bottle feeding technique when you first do it"

Congratulations dadnew.

As most of the other posters have said, don't suggest formula.

Ask her 'what can I do?' I was such a cow when sleep deprived that any other question was JUST WRONG, poor DH trying to double guess what I might want, or saying what do you want me to do definitely got the snide remarks.

I'm going to be extra nice to my DH this evening in tribute to this thread- we're 10 years on from those early hormonal sleep deprived days, but I really was horrid to him for months when the DCs were babies.

If you are both very sleep-deprived at the moment, you could try taking yourself off to the spare room (or equivalent) one or two nights a week if at all possible.

This will allow your DW to get through the night as best she may, without worrying about disturbing you. Also, when you get up (relatively) refreshed in the morning, you can take baby away and give your wife a lie in to catch up on a little sleep.

Hell on earth is two sleep-deprived people struggling to remain civil and patient with each other. The worst bit is there being no end in sight. If at least one of you knows that they are going to get a decent kip within the next 5 days then things start looking easier to cope with.

P.S. do agree this strategy with your DW in advance, otherwise she might think you are just opting out for an easy life...

dadnew - welcome to MN and congratulations. Sorry to hear you are struggling.

I am a Dad and well remember the sheer mind bending exhaustion of a new baby. Going to repeat a lot of what others said but here goes.

To be honest my wife did not enjoy breastfeeding at all and I felt very helpless and like you I wanted to 'make things better'. After 4 months my wife gave up but it was entirely her decision. I know you are trying to be helpful but she will feel you are criticising her by suggesting formula. Don't!

i am no expert but I really think there is a risk your wife may have PND. Have you got a health visitor who can come and talk to her and assess her?

Practically, what I suggest is you look around the house and put together a schedule of tasks that need doing and show your wife and the days and times you plan to do things so she doesnt have to. Ask her if she wants anything adding to the list but you must be proactive. Dont ask her what she wants doing and don't wait to be told - just do it. Good you have a cleaner. Get online shopping delivered. A washer load put on every morning before you go to work and then dried and ironed when you come back. Tidy up before you go to bed and a quick scoot round before you go to work so the house is not a tip all day. There is nothing more soul destroying than sitting in a messy house all day.

Definitely take the baby off your wife in the morning so she has a little time to get a shower and dressed before you go out to work and also make her breakfast. Ask her if she needs anything bringing in when you get back from work. Make sure she always has meals/snacks she can grab from the fridge. Maybe a packed lunch with little treats would be good.

Do take the baby when you get home so she gets to have a rest and you have some 'Daddy time' with the baby. Do get involved with as much as you can on changing and bathing the baby and dont just lob the baby back to your wife the minute it cries or poops. Take the baby out on your own so your wife has an hour of silence and peace. I used to enjoy carrying our sons in a pouch on my front out shopping and around the house as its hands free but the baby can see you. If your wife can face it get her to express some milk but dont put pressure on her to do it as my wife never got the hang of breast pumps.

Stick around on MN. You dont need to just post in Dadsnet as it is very quiet over there. You can post anywhere on MN (like I and most other Dads do) but just be aware that as a man you are in a tiny tiny minority and you have use a bit of common sense in what and where you post. You always get lots of replies in Chat if you need advice and its fun and informative too just reading.

This was such a long time ago for us, but I still remember it well. Just one thing, OP. If you are like my DH, you probably want to find solutions for problems - you want to fix things. IMHO, the best fixer for this is time! You just have to hang in there and you will be on to the next phase of parenthood. Looking back, it all goes so fast. You will get through this, but with patience and a lot of tact. Good luck.

I was just like your wife. our relationship went through such a rough patch, and when dc2 came along it got even worse! I didn't realise how bad I was and took a long time to get over myself and stop being so selfish and recognise that my dh was struggling as much as i was. instead of supporting eachother it was like a game of who has the harder day! i just wanted him to tell me to relax it that it would all be o.k. my 3rd baby is now 3months old and things get sooooo much easier at this age. and then they hit the hideous 4month growth spurt but that's a whole other issue!

get a book like the wonder weeks which explain what your baby is going through and help you understand why things are as they are. it will help you deal with baby better and not get so frustrated and worked up when he doesn't seem to be happy and settled like the other books are telling you he should be.

the biggest thing that helped me was getting out the house almost every day to do something - i found a lovely baby group, swimming with baby, walk in the park, free sing and rhyme at the library kept me going and helped me meet some great friends who were going through the same thing or worse!

I know this is mumsnet and i shouldn't say this, but you need a big hug and it sounds like you are doing a fab job.