Excessive bullying between siblings - verbal abuse

[allnewtaketwo]

For a very long time, DSS1's treatment of DSS2 has been terrible. Now I know all other brothers argue, fight and 'bully' to some extent, and that arguing between siblings is completely normal. BUT, the way DSS1 constantly gets at DSS2 has now, in my opinion, got to be totally unacceptable and makes me feel very uneasy.

It's all verbal. Literally within the first 5 mins they were here this evening, I counted 6 occasions of DSS1 getting at DSS2. It's not joking around, it's constant talking down to, undermining etc. Makes me totally cringe and want to leave the room. DH completely agrees with me. Tonight he said that DSS1 was at it all the way here in the car. DH does correct DSS1 about it, tells him to stop.

DH telling DSS1 to stop is ineffective. DSS2 is quite even tempered but quite an emotionally vulnerable child I would say. Unlike DSS1 he is quite 'deep' and caring. For various reasons I won't go into here, it appears that for whatever reason, DSS1 lacks empathy

I've been reading up on this, and the potential implications for DSS2's self-esteem are huge. I feel we cannot stand by and see this happen and it is time to take some action which is stronger than DH asking DSS1 to stop. I'm thinking e.g. telling him to leave the room each time he does it.

There is no communication between DH and the childrens' mother at all. There is no point him mentioning it to her because she thinks he is wrong about everything and knows nothing. She is the great source of knowledge that does not need to be told anything about her children. DH has spoken to DSSs and apparently their mother fines them both when there is any arguing/bullying

But , why are you doing nothing about it?

I would not stand for this. Forget asking him to leave the room. This is an unacceptable behaviour which simply should not be tolerated.
It doesn't matter what their mother is doing. Stop permitting it.

The younger boy is being tormented and demeaned in his own home.
And as far as he is concerned you and your dh don't much care.

So his brother demeans him and, by not objecting, you tell him that his brother may have a point. Certainly he is not worth sticking up for.

If you were saying that your dh didn't agree it was a problem. Or the older brother was concealing it I could understand. But that is not the case.

You should sit them both down. Say the house rule is that nasty name calling is not allowed. Full stop. If it happens again then x will happen.

It isn't normal or ok or usual. Of course they get arsy with each other. But bullying is not on.

Ok.
This is where I explain that I was a younger sibling.
It teaches you that you are worthless.

My ds1 did this to dd for a while. He was 15 She was 6
We sat them both down and talked about what he was doing and how awful it must be for her. How upsetting it was to watch and how needless and mean. We asked him to think about why he was doing it, what he wanted her to think about him. We asked him to think about being in your own home and feeling sad and belittled.
We told him that we would not tolerate it. If he did it again we would take his phone away. Then his lap top. Then ground him. He knew we would.

He was mortified. He hadn't really thought about it from her point of view. He stopped it. That day.

How old are your DSSs? FWIW we have issues with DSS1 (16) beating up DSS2 (13) that I think have got out of control due to DP not coming down hard enough on violence in the home, although he is beginning to get the message. DSS1 also has a big issue with lack of empathy - he has very few friends (has been pushed out of his class group) whereas DSS2 has lots of empathy and is very popular.

Pagwatch - stepmothers are not responsible for disciplining their stepchildren. Obviously as a stepmother you need to keep order when you are the sole adult in charge, but it really is best to let the bio parent take the lead on discipline (and very much so when it is boys with their father).

Pagwatch, whilst I completely agree that the behaviour should not be tolerated, and the potential consequences for DSS2 (and my 2yo DS who is now starting to notice), as Bonsoir says, it is not the place of a SM to discipline DSCs.

Of course I point it out to DH, repeatedly, but being a SM is a very thorny position to be in, in term of problems with behaviour.

I agree that a course of action is for DH to sit down with DSS1 and explain why the behaviour is unacceptable, how it makes DSS2 (and us all!) feel etc etc. But I do suspect that his lack of empathy will stop this getting anywhere. Since I have known DSS1 (for 8 years), I have never once seen him exhibiting interest in or feeling for anyone else. He says he never 'misses' anyone for example etc etc. Doesn't get excited, ever appear to feel remorse.

Of course.
I think you are misreading my use of you.
I mean you the parents.
I have assumed from what the op says that they are in agreement about the fact that this is an issue.

When 'we' deal with an issue it may be dh or me or both who actually talk

You could be talking about my DSS1...

I was about to post about the same issue when I saw your post. DS1, 12, physically picks on DS2, 8 - hits him and pushes him and calls him "stupid" -ALL the time. I know DS2 winds DS1 up big time, but in my view, physical retaliation is just not on. It generally ends with DS2 in tears (usually of frustration rather than pain), and me screaming at them both. Not good. I'm at my wit's end! I'll be watching this thread with interest ...

There isn't the same concept of "you" and "we" when both parents are not bio parents, pagwatch. It is not either, or or both. It does actually matter a great deal that the bio parent take responsibility for discipline and that the children know that.

I do understand bonsoir

I think you are again misunderstanding me.

We agree a strategy. We decide how to handle it.
Who actually speaks to the child and issues the punishment (or pep talk or cuddle or whatever) depends on the situation.

For this particular situation I would assume that the op and her dh agree. Then dh goes and implements the plan/decision/punishment.

Yes... I am both a co-parent and a stepparent with DP, and we have a pretty different modus operandi with DD and the DSSs. Similar expectations, but it is much harder with children who have another home where other standards are applied.

Allnewtaketwo

That must be very difficult indeed.
Ds2 has little empathy be use if his asd. But dh and I have been able to give him consistent boundaries.
Your situation is of course much more complicated.

I hope you figure a route through this. It must be very hard on your dss2

I shall bow out. I am obviously not assisting .
Good luck

I would say as a younger sibling who has been in this position that its really important you do something to let DSS2 know you don't think its OK he is treated like this. I had self esteem problems well into my adult life, and eating disorder and other problems, I would say without trying to be over dramatic, it has affected my whole adult life, my career and my relationship.

Just to have felt there was someone on my side sticking up for me, would have made a difference.

My parents used to go along the 'just ignore her' route, but my dad admitted when I was grown up that they should never have allowed the bullying (which was verbal and physical) to go on. I think my parents were actually somewhat intimidated by my sister.

So in some ways even if the things you try, whether it be sitting down with DSs1 and laying down some boundaries or whatever, the fact that you are doing something will show DSS2 that you think he is a worthwhile person, worthy of your defence, and the things being said to him are not true.

pagwatch you are assisting, don't go!

As a second sibling myself, I really do see this from DSS2's perspective. I wasn't in any way at all bullied by my elder sibling, but I do feel that because of distinct personality differences, I 'deferred' to her outgoing nature all my life and that it really has affected how I am as an adult. I think this is a huge reason why I only have one child of my own.

Kurri - that is good advice, I'll speak to DH about speaking to DSS2.

I have been reading a lot on this subject over the last few days. Something I didn't mention on here (for fear of being flamed as a SM) is that the chidrens' mother is extremely controlling. The children have no choice in anything at all in their lives. DSS1 is an extremely maleable (sp?) child, and takes on her views as his own. He has never appeared to have any opinions of his own (his answer to everything is 'ok' or 'I don't know'). I wonder whether to some extent this is displaced anger or frustration. i.e. he has no control over his own life, so takes his frustration out on DSS2, who is an easy target.

On the other hand, DSS2 is much more perceptive to his mother's ways and has expressed misunderstanding as to why she stops him doing so many things (including seeing his father). He is so much more emotionally mature than DSS2

I'm rambing now, but I really do think there are major issues here. I try to explain what I think to DH but it's difficult as a SM - he recently accused me of 'character assassination' in respect of DSS1

the relationship we have with siblings helps us estabish a tool kit for future relationships/partnerships. they really do need to learn to resolve things more peacefully. is it worth sitting them both down in a peaceful moment and saying this can't continue, the effect it is having on the boy and ask how are you boys going to change? have you tried any parenting courses or parenting books? it might be worth using time out- then getting them back together to talk things through calmly/nicely. also trying to spend time quality with each child individually so that they each feel valued and maybe find some fun positive activities the brothers can do together.

skybuepearl - this really is not normal sibling stuff though. And it will definitely not 'help' DSS2 in either way in future relationships, other than to see himself as a victim with no self-worth

From what I've read, that attitude is half the problem - ie. when sibling bullying turns into abuse, the parents seeing it as somehow 'normal'

I have been a sibling, and I can honestly say that the verbal abuse DSS2 is subjected to continually is in no way normal

On the identifying with one child because of birth order: my parents were both second children (with same sex elder siblings), and both of them identified very strongly with my sister, who was the second child. It's a dangerous course of action, because the end result was that they favoured my sister over me (without any conscience desire to do so) and she has ended up very spoilt and unable to defend herself in adult life. My DSS1 gives DSS2 a hard time (both verbally and physically) but it is important to realise that this is also normal to some extent and in fact DSS2 is growing up to be a strong character who can verbally outwit his brother any day, and will physically outshine him soon.

And to some extent I don't want to intervene between DSS1 and DD, because DD is growing up to be a lot tougher than I or my sister were - and it's a very hard world out there...

I guess the thing is that to some degree, I see it as an 'outsider'. I see that as the eldest child, DSS1 is revered by his family (my PIL included) and that he has developed a strong sense of superiority over his brother. This behaviour has gone unchecked. DSS2 has developed into a child with very little confidence, trouble making friends etc, scared of his own shadow. DSS1 picks picks picks at him and DSS2 'cowers'. The behavoiur is in no way mutual.

Rather than making DSS2 'stronger', he is turning into an extremely vulnerable, friendless, timid child. Yes it's a tough world out there, and 'parents' surely have a duty to help in the process.

I think sometimes that when abuse is verbal rather than physical, it is excused. Personally I think though that verbal abuse is much more dangerous, as the effects are much less obvious

How old are your DSSs?

I also sympathise hugely with the issue of other family members reinforcing DSS1's bad behaviour - you are totally powerless, as a non-relative, to intervene here and have to rely 100% on your DH to do so.

15 and 11

Yes Bonsoir, MIL, for example, refers to DSS1 as "Dear DSS1" etc etc. She never actually even mentions DSS2 letalone acknowledges his existencE

That's a big age gap and very hard for your DSS2. He probably does need a lot more support and people on his side, blowing his trumpet and sadly, as SM, whatever you do won't count for much - the best thing you can do is fight his corner to get his blood relatives on his side.

Do you have any children with your DH? Something that has always helped my DSS2 (though he doesn't need the same amount of help these days) is the fact that he and DD, his half-sister, have always been as thick as thieves and DD adores him (and doesn't care for DSS1). This has always been fab for DSS2's self-esteem!

ds does quite a lot a bit of this to his sisters

we do call him on it, and send him out when he crosses the line. I think he has a problem with them being twins, and (quite subtly, sometimes) gets one to 'side' with him against the other

am watching this with interest