what is "unconditional parenting"?

[ssd]

seen this on a few threads here and have never heard of it

what does it mean?

Sounds to me like a very long winded way of saying 'pick you battles'

Oh no, Funnys - I'm sure it's really much more than that

Honestly, I'm delighted that those of you who use UP have found that it useful. I'm even more delighted that you've discovered the joys of interlibrary loans - as someone who's worked in the profession for 20 years I'm thrilled when people use libraries. I'm just very lucky I suppose that our parenting techniques have raised very confident, happy children regardless of the fact that I haven't found the need to deconstruct anything, or analyse why I do something.

Didldidi, it's the punishment in general that's counterproductive, as there's no real link between 'not eating tea' and 'not going to park' - the punishment is something we the parent impose on the child arbitrarily. As a child, you tend to experience that as 'unfair' and as a result focus on the unfairness of the punishment and resenting the parent. Which I could live with if it worked, but the main message they take on board tends to be "if I don't do this I get punished" - so the child learns how to avoid punishment. Now it may be the child learns that doing what it's told is a way to avoid punishment, which could seem good, except there are then 'side effects' e.g. studies have shown this method tends to produce teens/adults more likely to go along with peer pressure, are less confident (being conditioned into expecting punishment/love-withdrawal if they don't 'perform' or gain approval, be this consciously or subconsciously) and tend to do things to please people rather than do what they want to do in future life etc. Or the child could just learn that a good way to avoid getting punished is to just not get caught and gets more devious... That's scratching the surface a bit, the tea example possibly isn't the best one but you get my drift, hopefully. It also models a way of behaving that isn't necessarily one I'd personally like my children to follow - i.e. you don't do what I want, I do something bad to you.

An example which resonated for me in my personal experience, is being sent to my room for something 'to think about what I'd done' as a punishment - all I thought about was how unfair it was to be sent to my room and how much I resented my parents for sending me there, rather than thinking about the actual thing I was being punished for, iyswim. So I just ended up angry but pretending I wasn't because if I was angry I wouldn't be allowed to rejoin the group, and I had to say 'sorry' even though I didn't mean it, whereas a different method of parenting could have led to a heartfelt sorry rather than going through the motions. (And what I was sent to my room for was, incidentally, totally unfair .)

Anyway, I hope I've explained myself in a way that makes some sort of sense. I'm not saying that UP is the only way of raising happy confident children, but I know I want to do things differently than my parents did, and it is very hard to break away from the patterns they set which are hardwired into me on some level, and the UP book has made me a lot more self-aware.

My DCs certainly have minds of their own, I am most proud of the fact that they don't feel the need to follow others to 'fit' in. They are confident enough to do their own thing,so was I as a DC. This is where common sense comes in, I am not going to put myself in a vulnerable position because I am programmed to do as I am told!
I don't think this has anything to do with UP, it is about giving your DC some freedom to go out and about and risk assess for themselves but wih some some discussion first as in e.g. what would you do if we were in town and you got lost etc.
They need to learn how to cope on their own. There has been a recent thread on a woman shocked because her 10yr old went to the cinema with 3 friends and the parent delivered them and collected them but did not sit with them in the film. Quite what she thought was going to happen to 4 girls in a cinema at a family film on a Saturday afternoon I don't know, but whatever it was I'm sure they could cope! (if they have common sense).

I went to a parenting class run through the school which was very good, especially talking to other parents and it was very similar to UP, just didn't have a label.

MFM , 70p??! They only charge 60p down here. Even cheaper if you get it on your DC's library card. And I thought things were cheaper up north?

My own view is simliar to WildhoodChunder in that it was a useful book for helping me reflect on my own upbringing and how I want to parent my DS.

I did feel my parents loved me unconditionally and didn't put pressure on me to achieve etc. But watching my family interact with my nephew & son is fascinating after having read the book - the "good boy"s pile up, even with "good smiling" and "good dribbling".

If people want to use a different approach, that's fine. I wouldn't follow AK 100%. But I'm one of those sorry people who needs to read and think and analyse things lots before doing them. That's just how I am. People like me need books so we can make up our minds which sort of approach we want to take to serious issues in life. It's good that others can get there without all that hassle. :)

didldidi, AK quotes research that shows that children who are rewarded / praised for certain behaviours are less likely to demonstrate those same behaviours than children who aren't rewarded for them. So he would argue that rewards are counterproductive if you're interested in long-term character development rather than short-term compliance. You need to read the book to understand it really.

Lamorna, I don't think independence is part of the issue. I was allowed a lot of independence as a child and teenager. I had older brothers and mum being a feminist she could hardly say that I couldn't have the same freedoms at the same age just because of my gender.

But as a child I definitely felt more loved when I did what my parents wanted me to do rather than asserting myself. Which made life complicated when they divorced and they didn't want me to do the same things!!

This is one reason I want to break the pattern.

Lamorna that ismy point. No one, let alone my parents would have said I did things to fit in. But still it was there within me...product of all those "Good girl"s...

But I only realise this after a lot of reflection and being brutaly honest with my self.

MAybe youu should write your own book...you could make millions

Hi Angeldog Have been stuck in rl for a while...hope you are well (with your cheep libraries and your cunning Kids card plan!!)

I still think that UP is designed to get the DC to do what the parent wants, it is just a different way. It will be interesting to see how they parent when they grow up. I can imagine them saying 'I am going to say 'good girl' to my DD because my parents never would'!
I don't think you want a lot of 'good dribbling' but if you know that your DC has struggled with something for ages e.g. riding a 2 wheeler, I think it is nice to be a bit enthusiatic and say 'well done, you clever, clever DS'. If he is pleased with himself I can't see the harm in you joining in with a 'good boy'.
DCs want to please their parents, I think you are kidding yourself with UP if you think they are not trying to please you. DCs pick up on so much, tone, body language, what you do as an adult.Some of them will 'work the system'.

But the thing is Lamorna, one of the starting principles in the book is that DCs want to please their parents, it's just that there is a tendency to think "they'll get away with murder given half a chance", "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile", and one of the points made is that you should try to assume the best intentions rather than the worst with your children and start from that when interpreting behaviour. My parents still talk about how it's a battle of wits with toddlers but actually it was pretty much a battle of wits with me until late teens, mainly because there was never any negotiation. And my parents still joke about my temper, but really it was frustration more than temper. It was 'common sense' to my mother not to let me shave my legs til I was 15 - there was no need, apparently - and to say 'well, if your friends all jumped off a cliff then would you?' or 'well, if they're making fun of you for having hairy legs they're not very good friends, are they?' - not especially helpful or empathetic in my experience! Although doubtless done with good intentions rather than making puberty even more painful than it needed to be. Kohn makes the point about how children have a very strong sense of injustice, and I'd forgotten that but it is absolutely true. Don't get me wrong, I have lots of happy childhood memories but I want it to be less adversarial and more co-operative with my kids - we never really talked about emotions in our house, it was all about behaviour, so I find that part doesn't come naturally to me, and my relationship with my parents even now has a certain distance in that respect.

As for the parenting approach, I don't see the difference between going to a parenting class and reading a parenting book. UP is used generally as a shorthand for a type of parenting. Basically, most parents want their DCs to grow up happy and equipped for life, so any parenting approach is designed around getting the kids to do what you want to achieve that end, but UP is about trying to do it in a less manipulative, and more respectful way as far as possible, rather than the 'adults know best full stop' approach. Some things are non-negotiable, hitting for instance, but I know I spend longer figuring out my DD, and less time saying "oh, don't be so ridiculous" and dismissing their foibles. It takes up a lot more of my time, and I appreciate having the book there as it helps validate my approach as I don't know that I would have enough confidence in my own 'common sense' to raise my children this way without being backed up by something. Not that I run to the book for every parenting decision or treat it as a bible, but it is useful to have it in the background, especially after one of our more trying toddler days.

All makes sense, WC.

I'm still wondering, though, whether all dcs do in fact want to please their parents. My dds don't like me getting at all cross with them and generally co-operate happily with reasonable requests. My ds, on the other hand, can make a battle out of anything. I've had to be very creative and find lots of new (to me) ways to help keep everything as calm as possible. But is that just the way he is? Whereas the dds are more go-with-the-flow? And is it therefore more crucial that I "get it right" with him as it were?

I think that I will keep quiet as I don't see too much wrong with it. I just don't think that one size fits all, even within the same family and you need to respond to the DC that you have.
It is useful to read as background ideas, as is a parenting course,but then you need to take into account your personality and the personality of your DC.I don't think that someone with a baby should say 'I am going to follow the book,' because it may not suit their DC, they don't know what personality is going to emerge.
The fact that it would have suited you as a DC doesn't mean that it will suit your DC.
I can't stand the Chines 'Dragon mother' and would call her abusive but there are certain personalities who thrive on that sort of of environment.
I just think that it should come with a word of caution,'know your DC' before you get the theory and be prepared to say, 'that may have worked for Alfie Kohn' but it doesn't work for me, it doesn't mean he is a 'better' parent, merely a different personality.
I guess I just don't like the term UP!

I see it differently alligatorpurse. It is crucial that you 'get it right' with your DDs because they are people pleasers, who will go for the easy life and go with the flow, even if they don'tlike it -whereas your DS will make sure that he gets what he wants!

Yes I agree with that Lamorna. And it is hard to make things work for the whole family with all the different personalities.

I've read this thread and while I'm thinking that maybe different approaches to parenting are horses for courses I'm just wondering what happens when these children reach adulthood and start work?. Obviously their bosses will want them to do certain tasks without giving them choices/pre discussion etc.. depending on what employment the DCs take will it be a case that these DCs will not want to do a certain task if its not put to them in a certain manner etc? and how does UP work in the school environment? or are these DC home schooled? Dr Benjamin Spock was the best pead of his day and my MIL read his books avidly and OMG did she have some shockingly bad alternative parenting practices/views including if a child bites you (age irrelevant)..bite back

I really don't think that it is a problem salsmum, as someone has already said DCs are very adaptable and they understand that if they can jump on furniture at home they don't do it in Granny's house. This is why you often get DCs that parents complain about being rude etc and they are lovely at school because they are the sort of DC who thrives with rules and boundries. Likewise you can have the sort of DC who is lovely at home but a nightmare at school because they only see a rule as something to be broken.
Whatever sort they are they adapt and they will adapt for the world of work. Everyone learns to adapt their behaviour for the situation and it is the parents job to prepare them e.g. you can run and scream in a playground but not in a library.
Unless they live in isolation they will come across all different people even if the HE e.g.they carry some cups for someone and they will say 'good boy, that was very helpful'. You can't avoid it.

Having just read through this thread, and having never heard of UP before, I would say that, as with most things, it's all about balance.
As I've read through, I've realised that I carry out UP quite a bit (if we take this as explaining to our DC why we need/want them to do something and (possibly?) negoiating with them on things, eg the bath situation), but I also use bribary a lot too (do strict followers of UP not give pocket money then?). I have also been known to threaten them with no tv/crisps/DS for not doing as they're told.
So far so good in our house. I would say that they're pretty good kids (well, I would wouldn't I?!), but that they also are very much their own person too.

BTW WildhoodChunder, we don't share a mother do we?!! Sounds a lot like my childhood. Although I know that my mum loves me, I just wish that she'd accept that I don't always have the same opnions on how/why/when things should be done. Like you said, not much empathy going on.

Salsmum my mum apparently did that (she is somewhat proud of it) and brought it up recently when I showed her Kohn's book (which I recently read). That was an entertaining conversation

Reading the book, I can see how it could very VERY easily turn into an excuse for letting your kids rule the roost entirely and utterly (in fact, I know someone who strongly advocates UP, and her DD does exactly as she pleases. It is a fucking nightmare), but I've also found that for someone like me (who over-thinks, over-analyses and generally gets in a flap about pretty much every parenting decision it's possible to make), it's nice to have a book articulate roughly what I'm thinking and to have it as a back up to refer to. In a way it's actually helping to stop DS become a mini-dictator, as I was in the position (before starting the book) of knowing that I hated the naughty step/time out/sending to room method of punishment, but not really knowing exactly what I wanted to do instead.

Apols for name change - am worried that friend with nightmare DD will turn out to be a MNer and will somehow recognise me!

Foxter, I think pocket money is entirely compatible with parenting without rewards/threats.

I think whenever possible children should be given pocket money so they can learn to manage budgets. "If I buy sweets every week, I'll never have enough money to buy that toy I'm hankering after."

I think an UP parent would give pocket money regardless of the child's behaviour in the previous week.

I haven't yet had to face the issue of 'what happens if they break something expensive belonging to someone else' but personally wouldn't have any qualms about not giving pocket money for a while if something needed to paid for and the child was old enough to know better than to do whatever it was that had resulted in the damage.

I see UP as just as manipulative as any other "style" of parenting. It may rely on rhetoric and powers of persuasion rather than sticker charts, but it's still, ultimately, about getting your kids to do what YOU want them to do, even if that involves listening to their perspective a lot along the way (which any talented used car salesman will do, too). And if it's not about getting what you want from your children, then it would default to letting your kids walk all over you.

I think that is what I was trying to say ragged, I think that it is just as manipulative, I think it is actually better than rewards/punishment, but people using it should recognise that it is just a different way of getting the DC to do what you want them to do.
DCs pick up on what the parent wants and they tend to give it.e.g. I know a mother who follows UP, quite well, but the home is organised the way that she wants it organised and I think that there is a lot of pressure (that she can't see, she is too close) for her DDs to conform to her beliefs. She is very strict on food and her DDs fit in, I'm not sure what she would do if they stood up and said 'actually we don't like the diet, we have read up about it and we think.....' (they are teen and pre teen now). The reason that I said to alligatorpurse that I would worry more about her DDs is that they pick up the signals and want to please her, but her DS, who she is more worried about, is much harder work to UP(manipulate).

As I see it a lot of it is understanding the DCs point of view. I rather read that as mirroring back as 'I understand you are upset because......' or 'I hear what you are saying', as an adult both statements send me up the wall because I want to shout,'I know you do but what you really mean is that you are not going to well do anything about it'!
I think that it is very difficult to do, because either you let them rule the roost by doing something that you don't want them to do or you manage to manipulate them around to what you want them to do. It is just a clever way, if you are good at it,and not as obvious as a reward chart but the end result is the same.

Ragged have you read the book?

The point of UP is not getting dcs to do what you want.

IT is (imu) giving them the time and practice, to figure out what to do in a given situation by considering themselves, other people and social norms. Even if along the way they get this wrong.

Severla people have mentioned the idea that we are all still manipulative, even subconciously. I can't argue with that. But I don't think that is a reason to decide to be overtly manipulitive.

I still decide to examine my motivations and try and do better. I think this makes me a better person all round, not just a better parent. Though it is tough. I'll never be perfect, but I can be better.

'IT is (imu) giving them the time and practice, to figure out what to do in a given situation by considering themselves, other people and social norms.'

But the object is to get them to see it your way!

Lamorna...but that phrase "rule the roost" says it all! It says so much about the adult need to be in control all the time.

I would imagine if you are doing UP as prescribed by AK there will be lots of times that your dcs do things you didn't really want them to because there isn't a truly good reason for them not to.

This may seem like kids ruling the roost.

Or it may seem like admiting that despite being The Adult, your way isn't always best.

Kids will pick up on how others behave and will imitate (or rebel) against this because humans are social, pack creatures. To meUP is about not exploiting this.