"That makes Mummy sad" - exercise in empathy or emotional blackmail?

[DitaVonCheese]

DD is just over two. Sometimes when I'm trying to get her to do something, or to stop doing something, I tell her "It makes Mummy sad/happy/cross/etc when you do that". I hoped it would teach her to think about the effect of her actions on other people and would be a useful lesson in empathy, but at first I felt as though I was just emotionally blackmailing her. Now that seems to have worn off but was wondering how other parents felt about it ... ?

Possibly slightly off-topic, but why do some mummies talk about themselves in the third person? I've always wondered ...

Something I did want to say is: well done OP for listening to yourself and thinking honestly about how something "feels" when you say it! I always mean to do that but in the heat of the moment it doesn't always happen!

Absolutely, Simic- I thought that too, but was so keen to get my tuppence worth in on a subject I feel very strongly about that I forgot to say!

Parsnips I do it because I've read somewhere that young children find pronouns difficult (DD is only just starting to use them herself now) so it's best not to use them when they're starting to learn to talk (though I do tend to talk more "normally" now!). Elmo on Sesame Street does always refer to himself in the third person and I have to admit I do find it annoying

Thanks again for the replies, some really useful suggestions :)

Wolfhound funnily enough I was going to mention that she does sometimes tell me "I'm very cross, Mummy" even before I read your post. Like you I think it's emotionally literate (good phrase!) and am pleased that she can name and understand her emotions - I was never taught how to handle anger (in fact I was usually locked in my room to tantrum) and have some issues there so I'm anxious to help DD to deal with it better than I do.

Like the "kind" suggestion.

I am struggling to think about how I could phrase things in a way that would make sense to a 2 yo. "Please don't throw your food on the floor because I will have to tidy it up" and "please don't throw water out of the bath or the floor will get wet" just feel like they would elicit the response "Yeah, so?"! I feel as though sometimes the most honest response is "I will get cross if you do that" (better than "That will make me cross"?). Is it "unkind" to throw water on the bathroom floor?

2 isn't too small to understand that at all, I don't think. They understand far more than they can say. We always explain what we're doing and why to DS (27 months on the 2nd) and he has been very goodnatured and pretty obedient. When people don't explain or just try to make him do something, he kicks off. It works, is what I've found, be it a hat in cold weather, water on the floor, food. I just say "No, Mummy has to pick it all up and that's no fun for Mummy (- yeah, another 3rd personer here, shoot me ) and he stops. That time, anyway! I was once sleep deprived and snappy and just told him he had to wear his hat, and he was being difficult - and his father got down to his level and politely explained why, and then asked him to wear it, and he did wihout another murmur. He's usually very reasonable, if treated with respect. It honestly works, in his case anyway.

I think kids understand a lot more, and are capable of a lot more, a lot earlier than they get credit for. If you give them the chance to be reasonable, and they aren't too tired, they usually will be.

I think it comes down on the emotional blackmail side of things. It's too much responsibility for a young child to be saddled with.

The practical consequences are the thing to emphasise and the message will eventually get through. I wouldn't bother with the 'Please' bit of telling her not to throw food on the floor, etc. Just a simple, No, don't throw your food on the floor or No, don't throw water out of the bath. I wouldn't volunteer any explanation of your order unless asked. You don't have to go round almost apologising to a 2 yo for reasonable requests and a child doesn't need a credible reason for everything you ask her to do or stop doing.

If a child says 'Yeah, so?' that really needs to be corrected, much moreso than the deliberate spilling imo - 'Nobody speaks to me like that' in a surprised tone usually works. They grow out of the spilling and the messing with food once the tactile phase ends, but cheek only gets worse and worse, and it's encouraged by answering questions that are often automatic, like the question "Why?". You really don't have to explain yourself to a child of 2. You don't need to be a complete dragon, but there are subtle ways to tell the child who is in charge and there are subtle ways a child can get to understand that she is calling the shots too.

The consequence of emptying food or water onto the floor could be that both of you clean it up and can't therefore do the nice thing you were both looking forward to straight away? You don't have to state the bleeding obvious ('the floor will get messy/wet') and that's not a consequence for her anyway. What happens when a floor gets wet or messy is that someone will slip and fall and get hurt, so it must be cleaned up and feelings have nothing to so with it.

Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't having a dig, I was genuinely curious

For me, saying "please" and "thank you" to my kids is not about apologising for a reasonable request.
For me it is about modelling behaviour and treating my children with the same respect I would anyone else. Whenever I ask anyone for anything, I say please. I treat my children exactly as I would an adult - or maybe more importantly someone elses child. I've noticed myself making a big effort to be kind and respectful to other people's children and then I bark at my own. They don't deserve that and it's just not ok. So I do try my hardest to treat them with the same respect that I do others.

But it is just a matter of personal style. Some people feel it's affected to say please at all. That's their own style.

OP, you sound like a very nice and thoughtful parent, so I am sure that you are doing a good job. You may find that the work you're putting in now in explaining things doesn't seem to be paying off immediately, but in a few months you'll see results. I know that when my 3yo was your DD's age, sometimes he'd just be too buzzing/excited to pay attention, and would carry on with (mildly) bad behaviour. I tried to be dampening about it rather than too heavy handed (repeating the mantra about why we don't do that, and giving good behaviour much more attention than bad). As he got older, it became obvious he was in fact taking those things in (I hear him telling his little brother the same things I told him!)
And btw, yes, anger/crossness was an unmentionable subject in our house when I was growing up, and it means I have difficulty expressing it now. I think teaching children to recognise and label their own emotions is positive - much better to say how you feel (adult or child) than blowing your top when it gets too much.

"For me, saying "please" and "thank you" to my kids is not about apologising for a reasonable request.
For me it is about modelling behaviour and treating my children with the same respect I would anyone else. Whenever I ask anyone for anything, I say please. I treat my children exactly as I would an adult - or maybe more importantly someone elses child. I've noticed myself making a big effort to be kind and respectful to other people's children and then I bark at my own. They don't deserve that and it's just not ok. So I do try my hardest to treat them with the same respect that I do others."

Absolutely. I always say please and thank you to anyone when asking them to do something. And actually, explaining why I am asking something of him means he's very likely to do it. Issuing orders, and he won't. Most people react well to respect and courtesy, and my experience has been that toddlers are no different. A polite request with a brief reason isn't locking horns in the way an order is, perhaps, and I think it's a better model for life, too.

I just wanted to say this has been a really helpful thread for me and DS (24 months). I think I have slipped into the same problem as the OP at times, and there have been some really useful and constructive reasons on here why it's not an ideal response.

So thanks all!

If there's something you really, really want them to stop, like flooding the bathroom floor, the lack of 'Please' might convey that you are not going to discuss the matter and that it must stop. I don't think it does children any harm to know there are some things that are not negotiable or to be questioned. Normal use of please and thank you has its important place. But I don't see it as helpful in preventing a child from making work for me. I think it's important to let a child know where the limits are.

You don't need to be angry about it either. A firm but kind, governess style tone is something well worth cultivating.

Helping children to understand and name the emotions that they and we experience is really useful. Otherwise, how will they learn that everyone feels cross, happy, sad, angry etc. sometimes and that they need not be frightened by the overwhelming and confusing emotions they are beginning to experience.

Ideally, we should also be modelling appropriate ways of expressing and handling those emotions. E.g. It is a good and usually positive thing to feel angry - but not to hit and shout.

I also think that telling children that their actions have a consequence for other family members is fine. Talking about how their (the child) behaviour makes you (the adult) feel is less damaging than making the situation all about them and their shortcomings (as in "you are naughty", "you always spill your drink").

op, you need to read "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn. Tis very good and discusses what you are asking a lot...

I also wouldn't tell dd that it makes me "sad". Because it really doesn't. I can't think of anything that she could do that would make me truly sad. My sadness/happiness is my own problem not hers.

I would however, if necessary try and give the real reason why I wanted her to do something. That's also good for getting you to think about why it is you're saying no. I've found a few things where in fact I had no good reason for her to stop, so I've learnt to let that go.

With your examples, I might say "don't drop food as it takes me a long time to clean up". With the water in the bath I would say just "Please don't through water out of the bath", followed by "Don't throw water out of the bath" followed by "Do not throw water out of the bath, someone will slip and get hurt", followed by "right, bathtime's over" and an immediate removal from bath.

If she's doing something that will result in something getting broken it will be "and it will get broken, so we'll have to buy a new one, which means I can't buy ...."

For doing something significant to help me I might say just "Thanks, good teamwork there by us. Now we've got some more time to do ...." (i.e. something she likes. )

My ds (2.7) is going through a phase if I tell him not to do something he will say 'what will happen if I do?' although it might sound cheeky I don't think he means it like that,he genuinely wants to know the consequence. Sometimes, today for example, he asked about running off,I told him he might get lost and that would make him and me very sad. He gave me a big hug and said-'i wont run off mummy'. So in some instances I don't think it hurts to bring emotions into it,as long as they are honest feelings

I have used the "It makes mummy sad" phrase, but only for situations where I really am sad. i.e when DD2 started biting her big sister. I used it to explain that it made her DSis and her mummy sad. I wouldn't use it if she had made a mess on the floor.

I agree with your statements also math that please and thank you are generally important to use, but not when the child needs to get the message that their behaviour is totally unacceptable.

I wouldn't say "Please don't bite your sister."
I would say "Please help mummy to put the toys away"

I think when you are unequivocal you convey your feelings to the child just as much as you do by explaining your reason for asking in the course of stopping something you want to stop. I think by taking the explaining everything approach and trying to avoid showing frustration or annoyance you can convey the message that there's something wrong with having a negative reaction to your child's actions or something to fear in being annoyed at something your LO has done. The child gets the impression that there's something big hidden there behind the patience that can't be let out, if you try to suppress it every time.

"But I don't see it as helpful in preventing a child from making work for me. I think it's important to let a child know where the limits are."

Fair enough. I find he does what I ask if I am respectful. He knows I'm the boss. I decide where we go, what we do, when and what we eat, when we sleep. He has pretty well no control over any aspect of his life, so I think being polite isn't exactly negating any control. In fact I think not saying NO! but being calm and courteous gives you more control, personally. Kids reflect back what they get - and I'd rather that wasn't a set of NO!s and brusque demands. It doesn't take much longer to say "No, please don't get water on the floor, it's messy." And if that gets them to stop, and they see NO alone as a challenge, it could even be quicker.

I suspect different methods require different approaches. Mine throws maybe 1 brief tantrum a month, and only when very tired - not bad for a 2 year old - so it certainly works for us/him. We've never yet had a fullscale meltdown and I don't know many kids who will happily take your hand and leave a game they are loving when you explain that you are sorry, but it really is time to go now, you'll come again tomorrow. Perhaps it wouldn't work on another child? Who knows. All I know is it works very well on mine, so why bark orders and not model courtesy, when to do as we are is working?

"I think when you are unequivocal you convey your feelings to the child just as much as you do by explaining your reason for asking in the course of stopping something you want to stop. I think by taking the explaining everything approach and trying to avoid showing frustration or annoyance you can convey the message that there's something wrong with having a negative reaction to your child's actions or something to fear in being annoyed at something your LO has done. The child gets the impression that there's something big hidden there behind the patience that can't be let out, if you try to suppress it every time."

Hmm, see, I think a lot of adults try to rationalise the fact that they speak to kids in a way they'd never dare to speak to other adults. And actually, I don't think it's the case that irritation can't be expressed calmly and reasonably, either. DH annoys me sometimes - I don't think that's justification for jettisoning courtesy, or an explanation of why what he's done aggravates.

I just don't understand the mentality that you can teach kids to be reasonable, and moderate their emotions, by doing the opposite yourself. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

There's no need at all for any brusqueness or a set of demands though - firm and cheerful is my motto, and also a lot of catching someone being good. There are no immoderate emotions involved either, or expressions of aggravation that are immoderate. Mary Poppins is a bit of a caricature, but something along those lines is what I aimed at.

If the DCs seemed to be spilling food just for the fun of it and they had been there for a bit and eaten something, lunch would be over if they kept it up after being asked if they were hungry any more, with the comment, 'Ok, you're not hungry, let's clean up so' - and then we would clean up together, hopefully with the opportunity for me to give a compliment on the co-operative way the DCs picked up the broccoli bits, or how neatly they wielded the paper towel. (I don't like to use cleaning up as a punishment because it makes it harder to secure help when they get older if they think it's a punishment or a drag, or there's some blame involved.)

Again, with messes, some of it is just curiosity about how the food looks down there on the floor or wondering can water be thrown and look the same when it lands. If you take it very earnestly and explain at length why the DC is not to do it, the child learns that there's a certain amount of attention to be gained too, along with the satisfaction of curiosity.

I think it's just as important to praise specific positive behaviour as it is to name the specific negative ones, so no 'You're naughty' or 'You're good', but instead, 'That was messy' or 'You co-operated nicely'.

I think it benefits children enormously to have choices in their lives (within reason, what to wear, what activity to do, whether they want to play with a certain playmate or not) but I also think boundaries are important, and since I personally don't like a wet and slippy bathroom floor or to end up with soaked clothes, that is a line I drew, firmly and with lots of paper towels.

There's a middle ground between cross and angry (and downright rude) on the one hand and explaining everything on the other - and it's not the opposite of reasonableness or moderate emotions or at least their expression - you can be firm with a smile. We clean up the messes and move on with our lives and nobody gets hurt.

As far as 'barking orders' - this is something that is guaranteed to backfire. When engaged in some enjoyable activity I would always give the DCs a warning about 20 minutes before we had to leave, then another ten minutes later, and then another at 5 minutes accompanied by getting my coat or gathering up our stuff. We always had a pep talk before we went anywhere where we would make a deal about how the DCs would know it was time to go, how they were to speak politely to the parent in the house we were visiting and how to play nicely with the DCs (specific examples discussed). I had DCs who were very verbal so this approach was possible. Heading off trouble is far better for everyone than bumbling through tense days wondering why the DCs are so cranky.

I do find myself saying it sometimes (DCs are 7 and 5 now), but qualified by why it makes me sad, eg that it make me sad when I have to throw away your white shirt because it got cherry stains all over it (it does, I hate things being ruined unnecessarily), but I do find I then think, hey you're the grownup, you should have anticipated this and asked/helped them to put on an old
shirt before eating cherries. They generally didn't do it on purpose.

I think it has a place though when we are talking about how our behaviour affects others, eg if we are playing a game and one of them cheats which makes me lose I explain that it make me sad so that they understand how their friends would feel if they did it to them.