How to break the cycle of Arguments and shouty behaviour by parents and child

[Sonnet]

I would really appreciate your thoughts on the situation I currently find myself in. I hate my life; I am scared in the pit of my stomach about tonight

I have 2 dd?s aged almost 10 and 14. DD1 has always been fairly placid whilst DD2 has always been more challenging ? we joke that her first word was ?no? and her second ?mine?. .

Life in my household has become grim over the past year with arguments most nights, lots of shouting and not much fun. The shouting is around getting both DD?s to do homework, reading, and normal tasks a 10 and 14 year old should do. As an example it took 2 hours 11 minutes to get DD2 to complete her Science homework last night. Yes ? 11 minutes was the time it actually took to do it. Both DH and I had lost the plot and ended up finishing the evening not speaking to each other.
I work 4 days a week in a stressful job and my DH runs a small business and although is doing OK he had to take a big salary cut last year. We manage ok and have no debt but I seem to spend a fair amount of time juggling just to keep afloat. So I admit often we both have a short fuse.

DD2 is so argumentative and refuses to do anything for herself. It feels as if the whole household is run around DD2 and I walk on egg shells every evening around her. She does nothing for herself ? I get her school bags ready, uniform all out the night before, supervise her bath and wash her hair, make her bed, tidy up her stuff etc. I acknowledge that I have created this situation as over the years I have tried to avoid situations that will cause DD2 to ?kick off?.

DD1 is more and more addicted to facebook ? she use to be a conscientious student but not anymore ? she does as little as possible to get by. She has given up her flute (grade 7) because she cannot be bothered and after being an avid reader she has read one book since September Again I get her stuff ready for her each evening ( we do leave at 7.30 and it is an effort to get them out of bed at 7am) and tidy the tip of a room. Every evening she leaves wet towels and dirty underclothes on her floor and every evening I remind her and every evening it degenerates into a row.

Sibling Rivalry is horrific between the 2 with DD1 veering between deliberately winding DD2 up and giving sly pinches etc to completely giving in to her and letting her do what ever she wants ie DD1 will just let DD2 on the PC despite DD1 being in the middle of doing something.

I try to keep calm but if I succeed then DH looses it and visa versa
This is an essay ? thanks for reading

sorry for the random ?. I cut and paste th etext from a word document.

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dear sonnet
i have no parenting answers - my two are only toddlers - just wanting to send you a hug, and hope that some mumsnetters post their ideas soon...

i was a total bitch to my parents when i was a teenager, i suddenly changed from a nice girl when i was 13/14, gave up musical instruments, and girl guides, and started hanging out with dodgy folk and having older boyfriends, i simply cannot believe the things i said and did, it is ignorance of life while believing that we know everything and hormones playing havoc...

looking back i wish my parents had been much much stricter, and held the boundaries for me as i went through a horrendous few years and could have gone completely off the rails forever... they seemed to give up on me and just let me do what i wanted - i will never understand them for doing that... how could they have let a 13 yr old goy out with 17 yr old, or when i was 15 let me have boyfriends who was 21?????? and he HIT ME????!!!!!

sorry, hijacking your thread, obviosuly touched a nerve here, still hurts me so much - i guess i am saying - DON'T GIVE UP!!! hold the space for them, keep the boundaries, and they will be so grateful in later life....

love xxx

Hello Sonnet
I don't know my lovely - it sounds like the same dynamic as i have with my DD1 but she's 8 going on 18. Your post did resonate with me as i do do the packing of bag, arguing over hw, tidying up etc etc and my child rolls eyes, sighs, shrugs, yells and it ends up like Lilo and Stitch. GO TO YOUR ROOM! I AM IN MY ROOM! etc
She can wind me up in seconds despite me supposed to being rhe Responsible Adult. But she knows how to press my buttons, ignore my instructions, have an argument for everything and answer me back.
Later she might accept she was in the wrong as do I if I was in the wrong but it then will kick off again about something else.
We love each other but are very similar.
She will also be very nonchalant - so what/yeah and? Think Judd Nelson in the breakfast club. She will call my bluff, never backs down and will accept the sanction which I am consistent with but have to be careful on i.e. Timed ban as opposed to dramatic I WILL throw such and such out if i see it on the floor (i won't it costs money).

You could try a tv ban -computer ban-etc

You could make them earn any pocket money with daily fines for things not adhered to

Agree these things in advance with routined time to be done by

Have you and DH sing from same songsheet/take one DD each to talk with/through the sibling rows. Divide - conquer.

Walk out the room if you will explode. Work out the triggers and do not return to room until you are calmer. Grant your DD the same opportunity - if she leaves the room do not follow her.

Look at anger management on the net for exercises you can do. Take your DDs out for a meal separately and ask them to air their triggers/start being self aware.

Do regular mum-daughter days with the girls separately. DH can do the same at the same time.

Oliver James suggests love bombing which is similar but DD call the shots on each activity for the whole day...you might feel that bad behaviour is being rewarded but it is about reopening communications and
reestablishing intimacy.

Swear box for cursing and denigration.

Punchbag for energy/anger - we use the boxing on wii.

Hope this helps...good luck. I feel your pain!

Forgot - pick all their stuff up and put in separate binbags for DD1 and DD2. Stick it in the loft. If it is their favourite top for e.g. the punishment is to go without it.
Give them a basket each for laundry - if not in said basket it won't be done and will end up in loft.
At end of week they have to empty/tidy away the contents of bags. If they won't,decide WHICH CHARITY IT WILL GO TO
Stick your earplugs in!

No tidy bedroom = no allowance

stop nagging about hw and packing school bags
let the teachers nag them about it, let them suffer the consequences at school

I'm with compo on the h/w. I have been into school and explained that if ds h/w is not done i am fully supportive of any sanctions school uses i.e loss of playtime. This has worked far better than me nagging. I remind them once an night that he has homework and then i leave it.

Thank you both for answering.
Masuki - this is interesting as I think that maybe i am too strict and the boundaries too fixed. One of my self critisims if I take a step back is that the evenings can be a bit like a military operation with tasks to be completed beofre TV/facebook time. But this is done for 2 reasons: a) to ensure everything is done and no morning panics and b) to give them more free time. If left to their own devices they would mess around all evening with homework etc.
Do you wish you had carried on with your instrument?
Can i ask you how you wish your parents had laid the law down?

Thanks Sux2bsanta too for helpful suggestions. I do the "agreed in advance for rountine things to be done" and wondered if that was part of the issue BUT as said above it will just not be done.
I like the idea of doing sperate things with the girls 1 on 1. I just need to find the energy. Love Bombing also may work. I want to avoid removing tv/mobile etc as it just seems to renforce the negitivity that surrounds our home. I did start, a while ago, "if anything is left on your floor at bedtime it will be confiscated in a box and you have to earn it back" - It did begin to work but I can't think why I stopped - lack of energy I suppose.

thank you both - you have been very helpful

Re homework - I wish!! All that happens is she has a fit after she has gone to bed usually between 10 and 11pm that she has home work to do. I then have a choice - she does it and goes to sleep ( my ususal choice) or I dig firm,( have done this twice) we all have a row and she is still awake at 2am. She finally falls asleep and then is horrific in the morning refusing to go to school. Finally get to school late, DD1 late, the 2 children I take to school late too. me then late for work so I have to work late to make up for it - horrif evening and so on in a circle. School did sod all about it at the time and she got away with handing it in late. I accept I am taking the line of least resistance but I cannot cope with the rows at 2am.

Yes I do nag BUT if I stop nagging about packing school bags in the evening there is no time in the morning. They get up at 7 and we leave at 7.30 - any later I am late for work and have to work late to make up - so in a way me nagging and sorting it out the night before makes my work life easier.

Maybe I have to shut up and put up then

sonnet, i have to go on the school run, but my parents just said ok, give everytthing up, do what you like, be home by ten!!!

they let me hang out with no-hopers whose parents were not educated, no proper jobs etc.... WHY>>>>>??????? I just don't get it.

They both are highly educated intelligent cultured folk, yet let me hang out on a sink estate with rough stuff.... at 13, 14, 15.... so i left school with nothing at 16...

why didnt' they lock me in, make me do my homework, why didn't they care??? Because they wanted an easy life.... and didn;t know how to handle teenagedom....

must run, gosh feels like i am in counselling, i havent forgiven them, it breaks my heart how they didnt protect me more....

ps yes i wish i had carried on with my musical instruments, i was good, it was beautiful stuff,,,music is precious.... so was girl guides,,,, lovely learning, lifeskills... to go hang out on a BENCH????? how could they???? why did they let me do that? i was intelligent, grammar school, Aplus girl......

ok now in tears already"!""""""!!!!!!!

gonna be late......

Sonnet - if they haven't got THEIR bags ready then they go without. THey are old enough to be responsible for themselves now. As i said,it may be worth mentioning what you are doing to school so they don't think you are being slack.

Ooops! Hadn't finished! My ds aged 10 and dd aged 13 are getting better since i introduced this at home. I told them i was not prepared to be the bad guy and they need to start being responsible for themselves. As i said,i do remind them but only once and then it is down to them. Missing time with their mates i.e breaktime,shorter lunchtimes at school seems to have far more affect than anything i could do at home. As for room tidying - if,after fair warning,things are not put away then they get taken away. They then have to be earnt back. I don't expect perfectly folded clothes - in the drawer is the goal!

OP you are living my life word for word except that mine are boys 11 and 15, and they would never dream of showing enough commitment to get to grade 7 in anything that was extra-curricular. Spend their precious free time doing non-essential music practice? Are you having a laugh?!

If my youngest put half the energy into getting on with stuff that he puts into lavish avoidance tactics (and arguments over said tactics) he'd be the world's highest achieving 11 year old.

I have an 18 year old as well, and he is generally pretty fab, but responsible for an awful lot of wet towels left on the floor and his bedroom has at least 9 dirty cups in it at any given time. I once refused to do his washing for him any longer, and it went a whole month with him wearing every item he owned about four times each before I finally caved in. He didn't touch the machine once. He wasn't trying to prove a point - he just didn't care!

I don't know what to say to help - except I understand and sympathise. When you get the answer let me know, will you?!

One battle at a time. I would enforce bedtime first I think before moving onto other stuff. Turn off the wifi, remove all mobile phones etc at say 9pm? Then let them take the consequences of their behaviour more, don't pick up laundry or towels, but don't nag about it either, just leave them where they are. It will not be you that has the soggy one! Same with packing school bags. Less shouting, more leaving then to feel the consequences.

Oh, forgot to say, I went in my kids bathroom last week and there were NINE sopping wet towels in the bath. That'll teach me not to trail round after them on a daily basis. I know it's a cliche, but they really do treat it like a hotel.

Thanks numptysmum - just have to brace myself for the fall out... I am embarressed to admit what happened this morning:
We get to school and open boot of car:
DD2 - where is my clarinet?
me - Well did you pack it, no, guess what I didn't either
DD2 - hysterics in the car park, trying to get back into the car, saying she wan;t going to school etc - me frantic i will be late (horrid childless boss who checks her watch everyday despite me often being early)
me - well I will phone teacher and explain etc

NOW - what I SHOULD have done was to tell her to go and see teacher and apologise herself....
- I just try and minimsie the hassal but it has backfired on me in a huge way

Masuki - I am sorry I have brought up old feelings. Maybe they thought you would work it out yourself and really couldn't handle teens. At least you will never repeat that mistake. Thank you for telling me your story it really has helped me put it in perspective xx

I think they can only become more responsible if you genuinely let them take the responsibility, IYSWIM

Try the techniques suggested in this
and/or this

• some of the examples in the first book are identical situations to some of those you describe.

HTH

Wow thanks for all the responses - going to go back and read them al now

Really thought I would be in a minority - glad ( but not IYSWIM) thast other people have the same problems..

InmaculadaConcepcion thank you for the book suggestions. Hoe embarrasing though I have the first
will dig it out tonight and re-read..

I cannot offer any advice, I can only sympathise with you. I completely and wholeheartedly agree with Masuki - I was exactly the same, I was a hideous teenager, a complete and utter B.1.tch and am so ashamed at how i treated my parents. My mum was quite laid back but my dad was really strict and it was with him who i used to lock horns and rebel against.

I think its all about trying to find the balance between being strict and being fair, which unfortunately is a "suck it and see" kind of thing. What works for one may not work for another. I, myself, am just entering this stage, DS1 is 12, DD is 10, DS2 is 6 - the older two do tend to bicker a little bit and I am just waiting for the huge surge of hormones that comes with teenage-dom that will turn this house into a war zone! Unfortunately none of us are given a hand book to deal with this part of bringing up children

Good luck with it and i dare say soon enough it will be me reachin out for help......and alcohol!

FellatioNelson - so nice to know I am not alone - I have been feeling so inadequate.
Acanthus - bed time not too much of an issue - almost 10 year old at 8.30 and 14 year old at 9.30 ish (more often 10). They do go to bed but DD2 dosn't get much free time. I would prefer DD1 to go earlier as they both need sleep as are up at 7am.

Thank you all - I am going to implemet the following by solving one thing at a time

Give them the "talk" re Numpysmummy that they are "responsible for themsleves". We already have a list on the wall saying what they need each day.

For DD1 - go back to bedroom floor not clear by end of day it gets confiscated into a box to be earned back. Wet towels left. Ditto dirty underclothes. Wait until she runs out

Read the relevent bits in How to talk to try and calm down the atmospher in our home

I will come back to this thread and let you know how it goes.

I am so scared that if I don;t stop it now it will only get far worse