I am becoming aggressive dealing with DS (6) sleep problems. Please help me stop

[peppermintpig]

We are a close, loving family. I am extremely relaxed type and it takes alot to make me angry. Our house is happy and we all laugh and cuddle alot.

BUT DS1 has always had sleep problems. He didn't sleep through the night til he was 5 and now he is 6 he fights going to sleep with everything he has got - although once asleep he stays asleep.

If we are calm and understanding about his sleep issues he will be up and down until 11ish and he is totally exhausted. Not to mention we spend our whole evening dealing with him and other DC are woken up as he shouts so loudly when we send him back upstairs.

The only thing that 'works' is when we totally lose the plot with him, shout very loudly, yell, take toys away. He shouts back and argues but eventually stops.

The problem is that the shouting and yelling from me and DH is getting more intense and I find myself grabbing him hard and smacking his bottom and shouting very loud, very close to his face out of sheer frustration. It reaches this point perhaps once a week.

I KNOW this is totally wrong and I feel sick and ashamed writing it but something comes over me and it just happens. We always end up calm and cuddle and I apologise and so does he but I just do not understand my behaviour and need to stop

Nothing in my life has made me react like this.

He would love to sleep in our room - do we just do this ? We tried when he was younger and after a week or so the problem began again.

I LOVE my little boy more than anything and dread to think what memory this is creating. Its Christmas and we have just had the most horrible fight to get him to go to bed.

We do sometimes let him stay up later as a reward which worked well for a while but this has now become a battle point.

Harold thanks for your kind words.

I must get better at the counting to 10. I need to get stronger at separating myself from the situation. I have tried that by locking the stairgate so he can't follow me (when he's really tantruming) and moving where he can't see me but I haven't done that for a while.

Good luck to you too. Must be extra hard with PND.

If it were me, I would take it right back to basics, as you would with a much smaller child. Sitting by their bed for five minutes, moving the chair gradually nearer the door and so on. Ask him what he thinks would make it easier for him to fall asleep and emphasise the idea that you can work together to solve this problem. Tbh, I personally wouldn't go down the route of letting him sleep in your room or anything like that as then you're just creating another set of artifical sleep conditions which he will eventually have to unlearn.

Actually, yes I think Scootergrrl is on to something with the reassurance too.

Have you heard of the Walk in/Walk out method by the Baby Whisperer? It's suited to getting an older child back into good bedtime habits.

We did do this a while back when things were getting truly awful at bedtime.

Your right scootergirl, we did a back to basics approach to help solve the night waking. We'd reached a similar breaking point.

Will look up Walk in/Walk Out - thanks Doozle

Well its been a quiet evening tonight (it always is after a meltdown) and so I'm off to bed.

Thanks all, am feeling much more calm.

Try the reading thing recommended by another poster. I find it very very difficult to sleep if I don't read for a bit first I need to 'change gears' almost.

DS1 is also 6 and his baby brother goes to bed at 7pm with DS1's bedtime on school nights at 8pm and on weekend/holiday nights 9ish (though this can vary). He is up at 7am most days.

He does the usual bedtime things of a wee/brush teeth, then one of us reads him a story and has a cuddle. Then he reads for a bit in bed with his lamp on. Most nights I say lights out about 20 minutes after he has gone to bed but often he falls asleep reading, so I just turn his light off for him.

Apparently I was like this as a child. It was when I started to read independently that my, or my parents, problems were sorted.

Might there be sensory integration issues? I'm thinking of this with the night waking, which I hadn't picked up on before.

Some people don't have very good - oh God what is the word - proprioception? If your son tends to be sensory seeking - likes lying on the floor or climbing or rough and tumble or stims in any way, then that can make it hard to sleep and hard to stay asleep. I imagine it must be a tiny bit like having a leg that has gone to sleep, only all the time - that you have to keep twitching it to check where it is.

For such people, deep pressure massage before bed can be really centering. Or a really good rough house with Daddy. Or having someone just lying on top of them for a few minutes :o Some people buy weighted blankets at huge expense. I have always been too mean, but have certainly gone through periods of putting HEAVY bedding on top of such people.

I also wanted to say that

a) there is no rage like the Mama's rage when all but one child has gone to sleep, and she is More Than Ready For Bed herself. No judgeypants from this corner. I like the idea above about having your own snuggle space so you can just be dozing with the non-sleeper until they drop off.

b) I have gone through stages where it really really helps me not to have to stay alert enough to get up again and go to my own bed. Having my own mattress or heap of cushions on the floor near where the child sleeps would be an alternative to co-sleeping in my own bed, only actually, we do often end up in a family heap, because that is less stressful. I think my non-sleeper child can pick up on my tension of counting the minutes waiting to leave and go to bed myself, so I try to take that out of the equation.

c) I'm actually quite at the idea that not going to sleep could be a discipline issue. I just don't get why a child would not go to sleep in order to be naughty - what kind of fucked up family dynamic would that be? I'm trying to imagine a child lying there with eyes shutting of their own accord and going through a massive effort of will to keep them open in order to piss their parents off. What's that all about? I really doubt that's what your son is doing, especially if he doesn't like being 'naughty' at other times of day

d) yeah. Like I said. Go see your GP and ask for melatonin. If you have night waking as well as trouble dropping off, you need the slow release. If this isn't a melatonin issue, then the melatonin won't make any difference and you've lost nothing.

[we've had many years of sleep issues too, and we also have tried just about anything that was compatible with our family dynamic, which is consent-seeking rather than authoritarian. The solutions change over time for us, and the ideas here are just a few of the ones in our repertoire]

Thanks everyone..we chilled out over xmas. He went to bed ok tonight after a bit of a battle last night - although there was no temper lost. My main issue was my temper and just talking through this has calmed me down alot and so you've really helped.

I'm so glad quite a few of you have recognised its not a discipline issue - that has really helped because so many people in RL simply say 'I just wouldn't stand for that'.

I'm looking into all of the suggestions. We were away xmas eve and xmas day and I used that as an opportunity to remove the CDs as these have developed into a problem too as he became too involved in them. I'm replacing this with a calm chat and hair stroke while he's in bed and we are removing late nights altogether.

Justaboutmaintainingorder - I did say in an earlier post that the late bedtime reward was introduced when he had a long standing problem with middle of the night waking and he said he wanted company. At this point we had no problems with him going to bed and the extra hour or so with us every few nights worked for a few months. Then he developed the going to bed problem and we were left with the current situation. The reason they are a battleground because obviously we have tried to withdraw them - but it is hard as they are established as his mum and dad time. We did not actively choose late bedtimes as a reward for not going to bed! But you can't anticipate what problems you are going to encounter.

Maybe just modify the "late night reward" peppermint? If you would like to give him quality time as a reward can he have that during the day? It would probably have to be with one parent not two, but even if its just playing a board game with one parent, while the other parent takes the younger ones for a walk, it might gie him that mum or dad time while removing the satying up late element.

Lots and lots and lots of exercise? Tire him out physically to stop his mind buzzing. That's what I'd try over the hols.

What's his behaviour like before bed? I only ask because I have these issues with ds. Has never gone to sleep easily, even when a baby.

We have always had a consistant routine but um convinced that was part of the problem. Him acting up became thR routine.

From about 5pm DS takes on a manic form. Almost like he had no physical control. Can't keep still, makes stupid noises, bouncing off Walls.

It drives me mad and I have the exact reaction to you and end ip getting really angry with him. I feel awful but d

What's his behaviour like before bed? I only ask because I have these issues with ds. Has never gone to sleep easily, even when a baby.

We have always had a consistant routine but um convinced that was part of the problem. Him acting up became thR routine.

From about 5pm DS takes on a manic form. Almost like he had no physical control. Can't keep still, makes stupid noises, bouncing off Walls.

It drives me mad and I have the exact reaction to you and end ip getting really angry with him. I feel awful but it flicks a switch in me that I can't deal with.

Often Ds will be going laps until 930 which makes him shattered for school abc too twitchy to concentrate or behave. It's a vicious circle.

Have no advice at all really, just sympathy.

Sorry. iPhone issues.

Peppermint, I can sympathise because I used to find it incredibly difficult to go to sleep when I was young. I wasn't doing it on purpose, I just couldn't sleep.

I found it harder in the holidays when I hadn't used my brain as much as when I was at school. My mum used to suggest that I go through my times tables in my head and this often used to work. I was also allowed to read in bed until I was tired.

I think the eventual answer was that I had to have done enough physical and mental exercise in the day and also I just grew out of it I think.

Good luck.

Rather than punish him at bedtimes - which is distressing for all of you, work out a reward chart with him. Sit down with him during the day with a chart and get him to colour it in, with stickers etc. Talk to him all the time about it, ask him what will help him (with his light on, with books, CD's - whatever comforts him - get him to tell you what he would like - he may ask if you can come and check on him in half an hour etc) - Make it clear that if he stays in bed until morning then he gets a gold star. This gold star opens up a secret box in the morning with something special in it (you can decorate a box with him too). It doesn't have to contain much as often thats not what it is about - its about them having control. It may contain a token where you will take him to the park. The first weeks 'treats' need to be really appealing to him but not over the top or he'll come to expect it - but be creative - maybe a token promising him you'll take him out all by himself. He only gets to open the box if he stays in his room. Don't give in. If he doesn't manage it give him ONE chance / reminder. If he still doesn't say he can try again tomorrow. (It helps if you get him a clock with numbers). It also helps if you say rather than him coming out to shout you, you'll go up when the clock gets to XXX -whatever time you think he can stay successfully - you need to help him succeed. Extend the time you go and check him each night, by only one minute at a time.

The first week gets him into the habit of setlling himself down. The second week, two gold stars are needed to open the box, the third week three stars, etc and wean him off at his own pace. It may take longer than that. Every week sit down with him and do a new chart - look at his old one and talk about all his successes, however small - it may be he didn't manage one night - if he didn't the new chart should make more chance he can succeed, it may be you sit with him at bedtime one night to help him succeed but then reward him and tell him how good he is.

It will take time and patience but its worth a go and its a nice way to support him with what is clearly upsetting you all.

Good luck
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