I am becoming aggressive dealing with DS (6) sleep problems. Please help me stop

[peppermintpig]

We are a close, loving family. I am extremely relaxed type and it takes alot to make me angry. Our house is happy and we all laugh and cuddle alot.

BUT DS1 has always had sleep problems. He didn't sleep through the night til he was 5 and now he is 6 he fights going to sleep with everything he has got - although once asleep he stays asleep.

If we are calm and understanding about his sleep issues he will be up and down until 11ish and he is totally exhausted. Not to mention we spend our whole evening dealing with him and other DC are woken up as he shouts so loudly when we send him back upstairs.

The only thing that 'works' is when we totally lose the plot with him, shout very loudly, yell, take toys away. He shouts back and argues but eventually stops.

The problem is that the shouting and yelling from me and DH is getting more intense and I find myself grabbing him hard and smacking his bottom and shouting very loud, very close to his face out of sheer frustration. It reaches this point perhaps once a week.

I KNOW this is totally wrong and I feel sick and ashamed writing it but something comes over me and it just happens. We always end up calm and cuddle and I apologise and so does he but I just do not understand my behaviour and need to stop

Nothing in my life has made me react like this.

He would love to sleep in our room - do we just do this ? We tried when he was younger and after a week or so the problem began again.

I LOVE my little boy more than anything and dread to think what memory this is creating. Its Christmas and we have just had the most horrible fight to get him to go to bed.

We do sometimes let him stay up later as a reward which worked well for a while but this has now become a battle point.

We have one of those IKEA wall lights above my 6 year old dd's bed. After we have read to her she is allowed to read in bed with her IKEa nightlight for a while. I myself can sometimes struggle to switch off enough to drop off, but i do find reading in bed helps. Sometimes she falls asleep with the light on while reading (as do I) so we just go and switch it off. At least then she feels she is going to bed to do something she likes (reading) rather than going to bed to do soemthing she doesn't like (lying there trying to drop off and failing to.)

Sorry but I think you're avoiding the issue and turning to everything under the sun drugs,rewards,excuses etc rather "BED NOW" and ignore. Supernanny-end of.

Letting him stay up late is ridiculous,why should he have bad behaviour rewarded?I'd only ever let mine stay up late for a special occasion and all 3 are in bed asleep every night by 7.30 without fail.

Smacking,shouting rather than Supernanny-seriously . You're not giving him any support by bellowing and smacking, it's cruel. Believe me I can shriek like a banshee now and again but pretending that that is better than proper discipline- you're deluding yourself.

Sorry to be so tough but I think you need to realise that you're not being fair to him.

Suppernanny but I wouldn't start now,you'll have no hope. Start day after Boxing Day.

Mila Mae - you're not telling me anything I don't know! I already said what I was doing was actually worse than super-nanny. Hardly deluding myself coming on here saying what I'm doing is very wrong and asking for help to stop.

And wouldn't seriously consider drugs - we've managed to stop a serious 5 year night waking issue without them.

However am very interested in why he has such a problem. I have actually been a nanny myself (not a super one!) so know what normal attitudes to sleep are and have 2 other DCs with no sleep issues at all following exactly the same routine.

I will start again - but this is not a simple behaviour issue. He is very upset at the thought of being naughty in any circumstances. We have no daytime behaviour issues. When I do snap and we both calm down he always apologises and says he couldn't stop himself - he has a very high level of emotional awareness.

What I would say is try thr supernanny way if it dosen't work after say a fortnight then look further into why.
You say there are no behaviour issues but it must be affecting his day to day functioning with fewer hours sleep than recommended.

Yes Lenin - he likes to be in control of his actions. A year or so ago I would have said he found free play difficult, like managed situations. He has become alot more confident in this way since starting full time school and now you wouldn't notice any difference between him and the other boys. He's very popular (whatever that means) and well adjusted socially.

He used to get very anxious if other children were misbehaving although he's relaxed about this now.

Definately tends towards anxiety although this manifests itself quite mildly now.

He's very bright and exceptional in his verbal communication and as I said he's very emptionally aware. He's really really lovely!

When night waking he used to say he couldn't stop thinking - which is how we started using the CDs on the recommendation of his teacher.

Just to clarify for others when we started using the late night as a reward we had no problems with him going to bed - he used to sleep like a log until about 1 am but could then be awake for hours and said he wanted company - that's when we thought he needed some extra time with us. A couple of months after night waking stopped his routine was disrupted for various special ocassions and since we've had the going to bed problems and its now that the late nights are presenting a problem. It wasn't that we tried to solve a going to bed problem with a late night!

Thanks everyone its really helping me to think it through

I should mention its not that I haven't done supernanny. You don't have 5-6 years of sleep problems without doing your best with supernanny, rapid return, shush pat, pick up put down, bunny clocks, millpond sleep clinic techniques, even the old tie the door to the broom handle (never did that one though!)

How long did you do SN for and how thorough? I only ask because it will vary. Maybe you just need to do it for longer.

The Melatonin worries me. I tried to get hold of it for jetlag years ago but could only get it in the US as banned in this country then.

I think maybe you're trying too many approaches,he probably knows you'll crack eventually with each one. I'd try SN one last time thoroughly and until it gets some results then stick with it for a long time. If that doesn't work go to your GP as it must be effecting his school work and aren't there other health issues with lack of sleep?

Good luck!

My son has always had sleep issues. I put a tight schedule in place and I rewarded him with pocket money. 10p a night where he doesn't muck about and a 30p bonus if he's good all week. We have a 6 year gap between him, our eldest, and our DD. I also make sure we have half an hour after DD goes to bed for stories, chats etc.

I will give it another go. Its actually what we aim for anyway (that's the calm approach)but I end up snapping usually when his shouting results in my younger children waking up. We don't change techniques by the week - these have been tried over a looooooong time.

Not affecting his schoolwork at the moment as his teacher said he is at the top of the curve in her class. When I asked her if he was coping ok as he might be very tired she suggested that he perhaps doesn't have enough outlets for his mind activity and she was going to try and set him some more challenging tasks (never heard of that before in relation to sleep) but I do think healthwise he is very run down.

It does affect his behaviour but nothing too bad - a bit of grumpiness but can deal with that.

If nothing else having you all as sounding boards has calmed me down. It was getting very on top of DH and I.

Hes in bed now and is trying very hard after last nights melt down from both of us.

peppermint I've posted on another board about my aggression towards my 5 year old dd. I've been shouting in her face as you describe and recently found myself smacking her too. Totally losing control. I empathise I really do. It's utterly horrible. My circumstances are different to yours as i have a new baby and have pnd. Just wanted you to know you're not alone. As for the sleeping issue, my dd was a nightmare at bedtime and the only way we manage her is to read 2 stories of her choice (usually long ones) then lights out and i lie next to her and ring to her till she falls asleep. The whole process takes about 60 minutes start to finish. I think milea mae's comments are unfair. Please don't take her advice and start on boxing day - start whatever method you choose whenever you feel the time is right. With regard to the shouting and smacking, some good advice i was given on the other board was to count to ten when you feel the rage starting, remove yourself from the room and someone said to imagine your being filmed for a reality tv programme - you might think twice about losing it if youre being watched. I found that helpful advice. Good luck peppermint x

don't argue or speak. just silently put him back in his room and keep doing so every single time.

If he can't relax at night to sleep try wearing him out more during the day and getting him a CD with sounds to help him sleep. I have a sleep CD and it really helps me relax.

Oh thanks Lenin - really kind of you to think so hard about it.

I don't think it explains him as he doesn't have a problem with any other demands at all. He'll happily help around the house, help out at school and is known as the playground mediator.

Oh I am so torn between going with the flow and starting again and completely removing the late night privelege (but this seems so harsh when he has such young siblings tormenting him all day).

Is he a bit of a perfectionist too?
Dd sounds very similar in the day- exemplary behaviour, especially in school, doesn't like others being naughty either, good verbally with an adult vocabulary.

What Trinity and Girlie said - NO interaction after 3rd drop back onto bed. You'll do it 200 times or so on the first night. It will be PURE HELL but he's after interaction, and the reason that the shouting and smacking works is that he has finally got what he was after.

Do you think that if he has a deep-seated desire NOT to be naughty that he feels like he's going to instantly fail at bedtime because he finds it so hard to get to sleep?
Perhaps you could give him a get-out by telling him it doesn't matter whether he actually sleeps or not but that he must stay quietly in his bed and rest. We have some meditation CDs for children which really helped DD when she couldn't manage to drop off. Sometimes its just that extra step over the edge into sleep that's the most difficult.

Should've said -Sing to her - oops

CaptainNancy & Scooterg - that is EXACTLY it. He is a perfectionist and yes he does think he is going to fail and get wound up at the thought of being naughty.

The adult vocabulary is part of the problem when I start to get angry as he comes up with full thought out, articulated arguments.

So what approach do you think ??

I hardly dare whisper this but we a meditation CD - at the end it leaves the kids to their imagination. Oh my God he concocts entire flipping novels!

What time does he wake up, peppermint? Is he hard to wake up?

My DD is exactly the same. She fights sleep a lot. Once down for the night, she is fine.

We have tried everything! I am inclined to think she is just a night owl, as I have always been.

We are pretty consistent - bath, 2 stories, sleep. She's not allowed to get out of bed except for the loo.

Even so, some nights she just won't go to sleep til 10pm. Even if she's being good and not shouting out, she just doesn't seem tired enough to sleep before then. She's only 4 by the way.

We've had the most success with saying she must be quiet in her room, if she keeps shouting out, we remove a toy. If she does down fine, she gets a tiny sweet in the morning. Not great, I know, but worth it!

I can only sympathise.

I'd just try to be consistent, not lose your temper and figure out your rewards and consequences.

Oh and she's at her worst when she's not had much attention from us during the day.

I find if I can factor in some quality time to spend with her before bed time, things tend to be easier.

I only have one child though so guess this is more managable.