Unconditional parents - help! (BertieBotts are you there??) Mealtime defiance...

[WildhoodChunder]

Another mealtime showdown of sorts... We had breakfast, just me and DD (2yr), DS (5wks) sleeping in his moses basket. It was a fairly usual breakfast, she threw her spoon on the floor and the wipes and I explained we don't throw things on the floor and she couldn't have the spoon back as it was dirty. That was taken fairly well, she decided she didn't want any more breakfast anyway.

A while later, changing DS's nappy, DD 'helping' as she likes to do, passing cotton wool to me, she then suddenly upends the bowl of water I was using over the floor. I told her that we need that to clean DS, and we don't pour things on the floor, asked her to get a tissue and clean it up, and she did.

About an hour later she decided she did want more, so went back to the table where I had left the breakfast out. She sat and ate some quietly, then said she wanted more raisins. She'd eaten a load so I didn't want to give her any more as it might upset her tummy - I explained there were no more raisins today as if she eats too many she will get a sore tummy. I offered alternatives... She looks directly at me and upends her cereal bowl over the floor and all over her trousers. I told her we don't do that as it makes a mess and mummy has to clean it up, and removed her from the area. I took her trousers off to stick in the wash and left her trouserless (as I knew DH was down shortly and would ask why she had no trousers on - we have a warm house so she was plenty warm enough without).

DH arrives, asks her why she's not got trousers on, she says (chirpily):

"Put milk on floor"

DH: "You put milk on the floor? Oh, DD."

DD: "Yes. Milk on floor... on trousers."

DH: "You got the milk on your trousers? Oh dear. We don't do that it makes a big mess."

DD: "Never mind. We clean up." (Grins)

I'm certain she's doing it to provoke a response, just to see what I do, but I'm feeling very ineffective... The cereal bowl seemed to be a direct retaliation for not being allowed more raisins, I don't feel I have any tools to handle that well. Help!

Oh, and when I removed her from the table to clean up all the milk etc, she asked for more Charlie and Lola on TV - I said I couldn't put any more on as I had to clean up the mess right now. Trying to highlight a natural consequence... but she really wasn't bothered and just did something else... :(

I am very sorry to tell you that it is completely normal. She is two, she doesn't know you're embarked upon a theory. But great you didn't get cross!

Get her to do more of the cleaning up. UP is not a disciplinary method , though - behaviour takes a long time to change. Sounds like you were brilliantly calm and that will help too!

I agree, completely normal. A natural consequence to her actions needs to be as close as possible to the action. So you could try not being too quick to take her wet trousers off. I am not suggesting leaving her in wet clothes, but clear up the mess on the floor / table first. Then she may decide that wet trousers are not nice and will realise that if she pours milk on her self she does not like the result.

The down side of this approach is that next time she might throw the cereal over you instead!

Thanks, at least it's normal I suppose! I can just hear my mum standing behind me telling me I need to have more discipline and I'm letting DD run rings round me. I suppose that's the downside of the longer-term UP approach vs the short-term punishment tactic...

For what it's worth, I think how you dealt with it sounds really good!

Thanks Simic - I will show DH your post!

Just playing devil's advocate for a mo:

why don't we throw things on the floor?

Why not put something on the floor to catch thrown down spoons and play again?

I too think you dealt with it really well!

I do think ommmward has hit on an idea I really like, and that I use for DD sometimes...directing her "bad" behaviour into something I'm happy for her to do. We get it with bashing stuff, often the window. So I will go and get her musical instruments and start bashing her drum. If she wants to bash, she can bash...but some things are for bashing and some aren't.

Could be an option if she seems interested in liquids being tipped over?

Set up a space in the kitchen (or stick her in the bath clothed) and give her some bowls and water and let her tip them

Fancy meeting you here Le Queen

For everyone's sake, I'm not going to read the whole thing!

I shouldn't click on these either. I just don't get it at all.

can someone explain 'unconditional parenting' please

Actually LeQueen, I think you should stay away.

I am not sure what the official MN etiquette is but it strikes me as very rude to come and criticise when someone has specifically offered support from people who parent in a similar way.

MrsRhettButler, there is another unconditional parenting thread currently active where there are some explanations. Or you could read the book of the same title by Alfie Kohn.

specifically requested support

Wildhood, well done for remaining calm. It strikes me (with wonderful hindsight) that the first time she threw the spoon and wipes, you could have assumed the best and responded by 'oh you've finished eating' and show her where to put the spoon when she has finished eating. (Is there a step so she can put it in the sink by herself safely?)

As for the deliberate upending of the cereal bowl, I started UP when DD was 2 and this sounds like the sort of reaction she would have had to me saying no about the raisins.

I explain it is ok to be frustrated but that she needs to vent her anger in a different way because tipping over the bowl wastes food/put liquid on the floor which makes the floor slippy and dangerous.

Years ago DD got angry and pushed all the dining chairs over so they were lying on their back on the floor. She did it quite hard and I told her it was ok to do that if she felt angry but that she must do it gently because the floor is hard and the chairs were special to me (inherited from someone I love).
Now when she gets cross, she gently puts them all on their backs and then heads for her room. It is quite a useful indicator about how she is feeling! We leave the chairs like that until she has calmed down and then she puts them back up again.

What Otherside said. I haven't read the book but IMVHO, sensitive, reflective parenting is about teaching what TO do and not focusing on what NOT to do.

I would say you need to focus on her feelings around the cereal etc so let her have an outlet for her anger. (So 'are you cross? do you want to have a stamp/throw a cushion/say 'i'm cross!')

And I do agree with some of what LeQueen says, ie she is only 2. Don't be hard on yourself! It will all take time... part of the principle of UP (I believe) and my own beliefs on pareinting is that it is not a quick fix - you are trying to raise happy children (not robots) who become happy adults. This takes time.

Ooh I've never been namechecked in a thread title before

At two and with a new baby around I'd guess much of her behaviour is all testing boundaries/insecurity. (Testing boundaries in the sense that she wants to see how far she can go until you decide you prefer her brother!) Obviously you can't give her 100% undivided attention when you have another baby to attend to (not that you could anyway!) but she probably is looking for reassurance that you still care about her and dealing with things in a loving way should really help with this. Getting her to help with the nappy changing is a really good way to help her feel involved as well. :)

My DS is also two and can't be trusted to have bowls of water around - I tend to keep them up out of his reach! could you maybe use a bottle of water rather than a bowl - or washable wipes, and just wet the amount you need at the sink before you start? Avoid the problem rather than trying to deal with it after the fact is one good principle (and makes your life easier too)

But dealing with spills etc - it may help to remove the blame and therefore the conflict from the situation. So instead of "No DD, we we don't do that" try stating the problem (rather than the action) without blame. So "Oh no! Quick get a cloth, there is water all over the floor." or "There is milk on your trousers and the floor" then you can move on to "Yuk, it makes your trousers feel all soggy, doesn't it?" or "Milk goes in bowls or cups, not on the floor, because it makes a mess." (Or both!) - when explaining at this age keep it very simple. Toddlers don't really do reason or logic at this point I also think that possibly you over-explained about the raisins, because she won't understand long term reasoning like that yet. Something better to say could be "Sorry DD, the raisins are all gone for today. Would you like any more cereal or have you finished?" (matter of fact stating the situation: no more raisins, then giving a choice which is acceptable to you) Also I think if she is likely to upturn bowls etc you need to move her bowl out of her reach at the point that you hand over the raisins, if possible. If she can see the packet then you could give her the last handful and state that that's all she is having and the raisins are going away for another day now.

I had more but the thing has eaten it and I have to go now, sorry! I'll be back later hopefully. I hope this message comes across as constructive rather than critical, I can be a bit blunt in the mornings. FWIW I don't think you handled anything badly! :)

Thanks Tillymama, Adair and BertieBotts, that gives me a much better range of tactics to explore, all very useful and helps me get my head back into the UP frame of mind. :) I will definitely be coming back to this to re-read and digest properly.

LeQueen and co, the book really explains it far better than I could, it's worth a read. A lot of it is underpinned with proper research studies, unlike e.g. Supernanny and her ilk, which is what I found particularly persuasive.

I'm back too :) The bit that got eaten by my computer was I was going to say (and this isn't a criticism but an observation) - you seem very focused on the "punishment/negative reinforcement" side of the consequences thing, which kind of negates the point of it. Saying you can't put the TV on because you're busy is fine (it's true after all, and there's no point running around after her for every little thing anyway) but the fact she wasn't bothered and did something else instead doesn't really matter.

This IS a hard concept and it takes time to get your head around, but to me a punishment is anything which follows the rule "You did something I don't like - so I'm going to make something happen which you won't like." (And when you look at it like that doesn't it sound ludicrous?) Of course this makes perfect sense if you're coming from the POV that behaviours are only learned and people only do things which benefit them, because the idea is the child makes the connection between the undesirable behaviour and the punishment and decides it isn't worth it.

Leaving her in the wet trousers for a bit (not forcing her to stay in them for ages, that would be mean!) is different because it's not something you've artificially imposed if that makes sense - it's around the same level as allowing her to go out in the snow without a coat, but carrying the coat for the inevitable "Mummy, I'm cold!" moment.

I think everyone struggles with this because rewards and punishments are so ingrained in our culture, but I think that HTT had a good line in this that punishments are quite often a distraction from the main issue. (And I'm sure we can all remember a situation where we were punished as a child and instead of thinking about how to behave better next time the overriding thought was "IT'S NOT FAIR"..!) It's more helpful to look at the whole picture, say okay, this has happened now and we can't change that, but how can we avoid it happening in the future? And look at this with your child. While they are young there is more prevention than negotiation, but even very young children can be shown a more appropriate way to deal with a situation and most will copy what they see around them in their environment so setting a good example (and generally treating them with respect and not riding roughshod over their feelings) helps a lot too.

Argh - end of second paragraph I meant to add - but I think we should give children more credit than that. Not all children are selfish, though of course they have less maturity than adults in general.

Oh also, I forgot one last point. I read somewhere that two year olds are fascinated with how the world works and just want to find out about everything. So stating something just in a matter of fact way: "Cereal bowls stay on the table until we've finished, and then we can put them in the sink/dishwasher." or "We sit down on the bus" or "We only draw on paper" etc etc (and try to stick to the positive frame of wording - how something should be used, where something should live, etc). This seems to work well with DS. If you start off saying "No, don't do X" then he gets the demon toddler look in his eye and does it all the more because he thinks it's hilarious when people are "tchwoss" (cross ) and then he's both maddening and adorable at once and you don't quite know whether to shout or laugh at him, neither of which really helps! But if you go up to him and just state really matter of factly "X is for Y." (sometimes backing up with physically moving him or replacing the object he's using) in the same tone of voice as you'd use to explain "That piece goes here" if you were helping him with a puzzle, or "That's blue, darling" when he's asking if something is green or even "Be careful, it's slippery", then probably more than half of the time, he just accepts it as one of those Laws of the Universe and doesn't question it. (I'm sure this comes unstuck at the "why?" stage but it helps, for now!)