Please help me - I lost my temper with my son

[Shouted]

He's just 5. He has a great life. We are a nice, middle class family. I try extremely hard to be a great mother and my children are generally very happy.

Today, I shouted - full volume - in his face, shook him and poked him in his solar plexus. I dragged him from one end of the house to the other. I lost my temper for about 5 minutes. Significant and prolonged provocation, but that's not the point. The point is what I did was awful and wrong.

I am so, so horrified, afraid and ashamed. I've told my husband some of it, but missed out the part about shaking the boy. I had forgotten it until now. Husband was mildly supportive, knowing how infuriating our son can be, but obviously concerned. Little has been said.

I feel like a fucking monster, I never want to do it again, but I don't know how to ask - or whom - for help.

So I came here.

I have just noticed the age of your youngest, which reminds me that my son was awful when his younger brother was that age. He loved him as a baby, then was insanely jealous and annoyed with him when he started walking and talking. Now that the youngest is older (he's now nearly 5), the two of them are getting on much better. It's just a matter of you getting through this phase and remembering that it won't last forever.

Toffee: thank you for the Parentline number. I'm going to put it in my phone.

Agree, balloon, re not really giving clear signs that I'm getting more and more angry. I tend to be a bit shitty, quiet and short (trying to control myself, you see, by saying the minimum) before I get really angry, and my DS (really not the most sensitive of children and barely aware of other people's presence half the time) isn't going to realise that I'm about to blow my stack over his shoes. I'm sure their importance barely registers in his world.

See .... shoes. FFS. How can shoes ever be worth a full blown row?

Another thing, Toffee: your post about your elder child's jealousy has made me realise how positive my DS is towards his sister

She adores him, wants everything he touches and follows him around all day, much to his irritation. He copes pretty well with that; there are some outbursts, but he has learnt to tell me he's feeling cross before he gets really angry. I then intervene and distract DD with something, so he doesn't get himself in trouble. She is tiny and easily hurt (goes flying if he tries to wrestle something back from her), so what seems a reasonable response to him ends up being a big situation, with her crying in a heap on the floor. But if HE followed her around all day and repeatedly snatched at her toys, I'd discipline him; it's so difficult to know how to be fair when they are so different in age and size.

So, two points: a) my 5 year old has better anger management skills than me and b) I think he is maybe getting the flak for being bigger and stronger than his sister. She can be really irritating, but she is so young and small, I think I tend to divert my negative feelings to him (or, repress what I feel about her and then explode on him over somthing else). God, that's shitty.

Maybe someone has said this (read half the thread and wanted to post this before I forgot it!) - switch the telly on in the mornings only when he's completely ready i.e. shoes on, coat on, holding bag etc.

Will read rest of thread now...

totaly agree with orange despite saying earlier dont beat your self up, you have a very good point as it is not acceptable.

I do also think hilding on to guilt will prevent shouted to move on and see that this can improve for her and ds.

also i do not agree about going out with out any shoes is the answer tbh. it does not prove to ds he must listen to mum and not ignore her.

it is not actually the shoes that is the issue here is it? it seems its is the lack of routing, uneccesary distractions and poor instructions of what is expected of ds. not a critisism of shuoted.

if these boundries and expectations where set very clearly from the moment ds got up and stood each and every morning, the shoes would be very insignificant at 10mins before leaving, especially if all has other wise ran smoothly.

it is not unacceptable to just put the bloody shoes on him. will save a whole lot of drama.

Thank you shouted for posting this honest story about what happened and how you feel.
This is very intersting to me, and reasurring.

I was about to post myself.
After coming on mumsnet for about 5 years now ranting and crying and desperate and at times finding myself out of control with my son, ashamed, exasperated and so so so sad because of how i felt towards him and his behaviour and my lack of skills to deal with it.
I was going to post a huge thanks to every one who has done as they have done for you today and answered with sympathy and genuine concern, because my boy is now 7. he is an absolute joy, he has turned some kind of corner, and is a lovely natured child.
I cant remember the last time i had to raise my voice to him or even be irritated with him.

In short, WE have come out of the other side pretty much intact and happy.
This SO makes up for the moments that i had as you describe in your opening post, becuase i had them, and felt as you do.

Please take some comfort in the fact that we have all been there, we have all felt how you feel, and for that reason, we are all here with a cuppa, a hug and a friendly word to help get you back on your feet and be the great mum that you are.

Two people had suggested that already! See, it was a great idea

I love the balloon idea - mine are older, but even now I struggle to get through to them that enough is enough sometimes (tends to be larking around these days ).

There's been some great advice on this thread. I think the other thing to bear in mind is that they go through so many different phases - I'll bet in 6 months your DS will be great most of the time and your DD will be driving you to distraction. I always think my kids get together and swap the baton after dark ("right, I've done the last 3 months winding her up, it's your turn now").

I would also thoroughly recommend the "How to talk..." book - even though DS is only 5, he will still be able to sit down with you and problem solve (and will love doing it I'm sure) - sit down with a blank piece of paper and say "Right DS, we have a problem with the mornings: this happens and that happens but we really need things to go more smoothly otherwise Mummy gets cross. Have you got any ideas as to how we could do things differently?" Have done this numerous times with my kids for just this kind of thing and they always surprise me with how good their suggestions are. But do remember that it won't work forever and you'll have to sit down with the piece of paper again at some point in the future...

A friend of mine pointed out that you can't be fair to them when they are different ages and I think she's right. Of course, you have to expect different things from them at different ages. This seemed grossly unfair to my son, but there were things he was meant to know and things that his little brother didn't understand yet, so I treated them differently for the same misdemeanours. Now that the youngest is old enough to know how to behave, I am stricter with him, which is probably why DS1 isn't so jealous anymore.

Just knowing that you are probably taking out your irritation with your youngest on your oldest is going to help you. We all do that to each other sometimes - don't beat yourself up about it. But the good thing is that you have become conscious of it and want to change it.

That's very true toffeefudgecake - it can help to point out the positives of being the older one (later bedtimes, more pocket money etc.) as I think it can make them less resentful about the different expectations of behaviour.

This thread has been really positive for me: thank you.

at Goldenticket & DC's swapping the baton!

Gin: you're being a bit tough re saying I'm not setting clear boundaries or giving clear instructions. I'm trying not to be defensive (especially as you say you're not trying to give me a hard time!), but I am pretty clear about the shoes. And yeah, I can just put the bloody shoes on him (and do, frequently), but, you know, he's 5 and goes to school; I can't always be there to do it for him, so he needs to learn that he does it himself.

I suppose I'm feeling defensive because I do think that some kids are more difficult than others and our current troubles are not ALL about my parenting. DS can be infuriating and exhausting. Even with expert handling, he can be infuriating and exhausting. My Dh is an inner city primary school teacher - really skilled at handing challenging children - and finds DS infuriating and exhausting.

It's no excuse. But it is part of the problem.

Golden - yes, I've got that book, and am working my way through it, but the problem solving bit is one element I haven't tried yet. I slavishly lapped up your theoretical conversation (and will probably write cue cards ), so I think I'll try that. He does know that He Made Mummy Very Cross About His Shoes, so it's a good one to approach now.

what you say is true he does need to learn to do it him self Bbut if he is ignoring you then the boundriess and instrucions are not clear enough as they are not registaring.

what i was hoping to point out is the shoes appear to be as a result of other factors relating to the morning routine.

It seem that however you have recognised what to do to rectify some of this and from reading the threads it seems that some of this is making the routine clearer and more defined, ie telle on after he is dressed, giving him positive reward for being a good brother, this is about boundries and expectations, im my opinion.

as i said it really was not a critism, but in my own experience somtimes something like the shoes is often the exploding factor but not actually the cause.

Gin - yes, I see your point. I do value your experience. Maybe what I think is clear isn't actually clear enough.

i do same with dd what i thought was a reasonable request goes un noticed and when i ask what did i just tell you / ask you 2 sec ago? she is dumb founded and cant answer me. she just does not know, maybe what i said was in a different language or maybe just not clear enough, you do need to spell it out some times yes very infuriating.

That's definitely been my experience i.e. what I think is clear to them really isn't. For example, if I say "tidy your room", I will then get exasperated if things like putting clean clothes away and making the bed doesn't get done because, to me, they are completely part of the job. So I have learnt to be really specific about what I want them to do and it does seem to work a lot better from both sides.

On the subject of clear expectations: I had a reward chart for both boys for getting ready in the morning, at one time. I printed out pictures of the routine, as well as words, so that it was really clear for both of them: wake up, breakfast, teeth, dress, shoes, coat, school. I am thinking of starting it again, as I realised over half term that if I didn't nag the boys to get ready, nothing happened. I want them to do it themselves (and at 11, my oldest really should not need nagging).

Although it is a pain to remember to do reward charts, what is good about them is that it is all about focusing on the good behaviour, so you find yourself praising your child for lots of things that you might normally take for granted (give them LOADS of praise whenever they do what is on the chart).

A trick I was told by a psychologist - the rewards can be things you would do with your children anyway, eg go to the park, read a special book, watch a favourite dvd. But your child only gets to do those things when they have enough stickers or ticks. The real reward is all the praise your children receive, which, hopefully, will encourage them to repeat this good behaviour.

If possible, I would do one for both children, although obviously they will need to be age appropriate. This is so that your oldest son can see that you are treating both your children equally. (It will have to be very basic for your littlest one ).

Oh, and if you do go down the reward-chart route, make sure you sit down with them first (this really is sounding daft with your tiny one, but include her for the sake of your oldest) and explain why you are doing this and what is expected of them. Emphasise the excitement of earning rewards, so it seems like a fun thing.

Small point re. fair treatment of younger siblings: yes she probably is too young to discipline in the same way you would your DS, and you can expect more from him, but it can be quite useful to acknowledge to him that what she's doing is irritating, and that his frustration is reasonable.

Sometimes just getting sympathy for a trying situation is enough to diffuse any negative feelings which can lead to lashing out with bad behaviour.

It can become almost a running commentary: 'oh, look what she's doing now, you're being so patient - she doesn't understand how annoying it is.' etc.

It makes clear that you're acknowledging this is something that is difficult for him, and opens a dialogue where he feels he can talk to you about it rather than lash out and get in to trouble.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with putting his shoes on - just because he has a younger sister doesn't make him ready to do everything himself I'm afraid. Might be just a way he likes to claw back a bit of care from his sister.

Toffee - I am chuckling at the picture you're painting re my little one! But I like the idea of the pictures: we have used reward charts in the past and the problem is that he's needed constant reminding what is on them (because he couldn't read). So the pictures is a simple but truly great idea. In fact, it's so obvious, I feel a bit sick at my own lack of creativity!

Gin and golden - well, I know I'm banging on about the shoes, but I don't know how much more simply I can say, "Put your shoes on now, please". But maybe he's not listening ... well, I pretty much know he's not. I think I'll try the picture reward chart that Toffee suggested - that might trigger something. He's not very verbal, anyway: he seldom learns through listening (probably because he seldom bloody listens).

What's Wrong: I do try that - to the extent I worry she is picking up on what I'm saying! - but it's probably a bit hit and miss. I'll keep it in mind.

Anyway, big challenge ahead now: picking up DD from nursery early, then collecting DS and a chum from school. So it's me and 3 herberts until child no.3's mum comes to collect him, and then I'm on my own all night because DH is out.

Feel much more positive about it, though, so thanks v much :)

Don't say please! See "How to talk..." re the bouncing on the sofa for more explanation.

So:

"DS, put your shoes on" (said nicely)

"DS, put your shoes on" (said nicely)

"DS, shoes" (said firmly)

"SHOES!" (said more firmly, possibly putting them in his lap at the same time)

Any good?

Second the picture chart - have done this with similar aged DCs (and scaled down for younger ones) and it worked well (but obviously not for ever - nothing works for ever!)

Why aren't we supposed to say 'please', Golden? I always do. Thought it modelled polite behaviour .

Shouted - glad I made you laugh. Your poor little one!

I downloaded images from Google images, btw. Just googled 'breakfast', 'getting dressed', etc and found appropriate images. And I think there are some on Word pictures too.

Hope all goes well with three children this afternoon. It might, even, be easier . I used to find I was much more in control with someone else's child there - I had to control my temper with them there.

Enjoy your evening on your own. I quite look forward to a night on my own these days.

You should model polite behaviour, of course - but saying 'please' when requesting that they carry out a simple task that they will eventually do themselves anyway, or that they should be doing as a matter of course, suggests there's an alternative option, ie it invites them to say no.

The phrase 'it's time to...' or 'now put your shoes on' is not rude, it's just a way of showing a child you assume he'll do the right thing. Requests should always be reasonable, obviously!

Actually, if you can assume the appearance that you always expect them to behave themselves, it sort of rubs off and gives them the same feeling about themselves.

I found 'How to talk' and 'Positive Parenting' by Elizabeth Hartley-Brewer really useful for making me think about the language I used- language and attitude are crucial in this, I think.