Spanish or English Nationality

[1Catherine1]

This is probably in the wrong category but after scrolling though the categories available I think It where I'm more likely to find the people in the know on this one.

I'm expecting my first child in a few months and as an English woman who is used to paying over the odds for everything I spent this afternoon doing some numbers. I've worked out that if my baby claims her (must stop doing that, I don't know the sex but am convinced I'm having a girl) fathers nationality (Spanish) she will save way over £450 in her lifetime on passports! (excluding inflation) Ok, so that isn't a really big deal but I wouldn't offer to give £450 away if I had the choice.

I also had a look at dual nationality and if I could get my baby to be declared Spanish first then she can later claim British nationality without renouncing her Spanish one. If she did it the other way she would have to renounce her British one (even though Britain would still recognise it) which I think I would find offensive.

So my question is: Can I get her declared Spanish with a Spanish passport if she born here in England?

Short answer yes, but she'll automatically be British, through you, whatever you do. She can't get rid of it. A British citizen giving birth in Britain has a British child, who has the right to take up any other nationality they're entitled too as well. No-one can stop her being British.

Contact the Spanish consulate for advice on registering the birth and just don't mention the British entitlement.

As the child if a Spanish national born abroad the advice is to register locally (making the child British by default) and then fill in this form to register them as Spanish.

I suspect the nationality guidance you found applies to people who wish to take up their nationality retroactively.

Forgot to add that your DC will need to declare at the age of 18 whether they want to conserve their Spanish nationality or not. If they don't they will lose it, then need to recover it, which may be where the renunciation part comes in.

Thank you for all the info. It was most useful. I have printed off that form and will have my OH translate it for me later :)

Thank you very much

You don't have to keep splashing out on double passports just because she has dual nationality. My dcs are dual Swedish/English but it's ages since their Swedish passports ran out.

Nationality is a conmplicated issue. English is in fact not a nationality at all, there may be a country called England but it is not recognised as a sovereign territory by any other countries in the world, it is part of the larger "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" There are several types of british nationality too, there is the most common "British citizen" but also "British National (Overseas)" and "British Subject" etc etc. Someone who is a British citizen does not necessarily give their British citizenshop to any child they are the parent of, it also depends on how they obtained their nationality and where the child is born in the world.

But if the OP is a British citizen, she gives birth in the UK, her child will indeed be British at birth. The concept of declaring nationality just does not exist, the child will be British, no issue of passport needed to prove it.

Whether the child is also Spanish at birth depends on Spanish law, how nationality is given in Spanish law. But again, no issue of a Spanish passport is needed to prove the child is Spanish. But if the baby really is Spanish, chances are paying for a Spanish ID is probably cheaper than paying for a Spanish passport.

Having double checked the rules (with a Spaniard) I just wanted to confirm you WILL need to register the birth immediately, or at least quickly, with the Spanish consular representation but there have been no problems so far with letting one passport lapse because the claim to nationality has apparently been established. So it works in official guidance and in practice :)

Thank you all. My Spaniard didn't know until I showed him the form linked here to which he said "oh yea that starts the family book" to which I just looked at him blankly.

I intend only to get my child the Spanish passport since I live quite close to London and have been to the Consulate before when I lost my OH DNI and he had to get a passport to leave the country again. Also British and Spanish passports are in essence the same as far as where you get in with no issues so I see no benefit in getting both. You have all been most helpful. I'm sure you will see a lot more of me after the baby is born when we're educating my LO with the one language one person whatzit and being all bilingual and stuff. I might even have to learn Spanish myself. :)

we're in a similar situation, except both DW and I are British, but DD was born in Spain so is entitled to Spanish nationality after one year of residency. The Spanish passports are waaaaaaaaaaaaay cheaper, so I don't think we'll ever bother getting her a British one.

Interestingly it costs us over ?200 to register her as a British citizen, which we had to do as she was born overseas. Total rip off! I mean we just saved the NHS about £5000 by having her in Spain - they should pay us!! It would be interested to know if it will cost you anything to register your child as Spanish.

You do know that when you go to the Consulate they will want to see your "family book"?

There's no requirement to register 1st gen British born overseas. That's a money spinning fib the embassies and consulates tell.

Official advice

You only need to do it if you want a British birth cert, but it's cheaper go just apply fir a first passport to establish to right and then let it lapse, then it becomes a renewal if you want one in the future.

Sure you don't need to register to get a passport. But if you want your child to be able to go to school/uni in the UK you do need a UK birth certificate... so we figured it was worth the money.

still a total rip off though

Actually you don't need a UK birth cert for school ec. All registering does is make sure the birth is registered with the GRO, which you could do once you were back in the UK anyway. A certified translation of a local birth certificate is all that's required.

If you were born and resided in the EU you'd be under the same rules as any British citizen applying to university as EU students count as home students, and if you were born outside Britain and never lived in Britain you'd be treated as an overseas student in any case. Plus there are thousands of children born abroad who are entitled to state education in the UK. It's based on residency, not nationality.

And just to clarify, it's not a birth certificate - you can only have one certificate of birth, issued by the country you were born in. It's a Consular Birth Registration.

The FCO are very clear on that "This is not a UK birth certificate and should not be used as one. It should not take the place of the locally issued birth certificate."

If you are British and give birth in the UK, don't you have to register the birth here? I do not see you can manage without a birth certificate; one would be needed by the Spanish Consulate in order to process the second nationality claim. So the DC will be British "first", unless you give birth in Spain.

If you are a dual national you should normally enter/leave UK on your British passport (because if you are British, you can't get a UK visa into your other nationality passport - in practice you often need to travel with both). Not sure how this works within EU or other destinations where one/both nationality does not require a visa.

Within the EU you can travel on whichever passport you like but it's generally considered a good idea to take both.

Dual passports only become a real problem is when you find yourself in a situation of entering a third country on the 'wrong' passport and having to leave that country on one passport (the one with the visa) then change halfway through the journey so you enter the country on that passport/one which doesn't need a visa.

Also if you're French/American it can cause issues - French nationals are required to leave on their French passport, American nationals are required to enter on their American passport.

But 2 EU passports, no problem.

Frakkinred is absolutely right on 3 points. 1 no need to register a birth of a British citizen abroad, completely unnecessary and not needed either to get a British passport or when/if moving to the UK at a later date. There is one major exception to this, the birth of baby who is a crown dependent eg diplomatic or forces baby, this is so that child can still pass on British nationality by descent which a British citizen born outside the UK cannot do. In this situation, it is worth the couple hundred euro to prove your parent's status at time of birth, so that your children are automatically British at birth.

2 no need for either a UK birth certificate or certificate of registration of birth abroad in order to go to a UK school or university, think about it, schools in London would be empty if all those children had to have a UK birth certificate, all those non British children, the Poles, Roumanians, Nigerians, Iraqis etc would not be able to go to school!!!

3 As for university in the UK, those British children who have lived outside of England/Wales for 3 years before university can go for free to Scottish and Irish universities, whereas those British children in England/Wales have to pay tuition fees, yes the fees are based on residency and NOT nationality.

Onimolap, I don't understand what you say
about the 2 passport thing and entering the UK on a British passport. There is no law preventing a British citizen presenting the passport of a different nationality in order to enter the UK, but of course if your other nationality normally requires a visa to enter the UK such as South Africa, you are naturally not going to want to use that passport in order to enter. But if you are a dual national of another EU country, you have automatic admission and can only be refused admission on grounds of public policy or security, so it's quite common for dual EU nationals to enter on the other document, especially if it's an ID and easier to carry!! Even some dual non EU and non visa nationals use the other document, sometimes simply because they have forgotten their British passport or perhaps because their British passport is at an embassy awaiting a visa. They are within the rules doing so.

Natation: I was asking a question as I didn't know what was required if there were no visa issues, and I think you've answered it.

But I think for registration at schools in UK, you do need some form of ID to prove the child's DOB (birth certificate or passport). It's certainly routinely asked for.

Sure you need a birth cert, but not specifically a British one.

Registration in 99% of cases is an unnecessary waste of time and money but people seem to think it's compulsory :(

Yes exactly right, you need a birth certificate or passport or other proof of date of birth AND nationality in order to register at a UK school, MrIC wrote that you need a UK birth certificate which is incorrect, frakkinnakkered pointed that out.

Our children have 3 citizenships (German, British and Canadian) and they travel on whichever passport is currently to hand. As my dh and I have different nationalites, we ofen travel with 3 different passports. This has never been a problem, either within Europe or North America (apart from a smile and a friendly comment ).

I think our dc can keep all 3 nationalities once they turn 18 but must double check this (does anyone know?). If so, can you imagine if our dc married someone with 3 different nationalities - then their children would be able to claim 6 nationalities....

I think for German they need to ask permission to retain their other citizenships after 21.

Britush citizenship you never lose but there are restrictions to passing it on. If they're british born abroad (British by descent) they may be able to pass it on another generation as long as they can prove substantial ties to the UK eg prolonged periods of residence after the age of 18 (uni counts) but it goes no further than the second generation born abroad (unless the child has no other claim to a nationality).

So whilst there's technically no limit in practice it's difficult to retain all your citizenships indefinitely! Many countries also have restrictions on which other citizenships you can hold...

natation- do you work for the naty office by any chance? I used to work there many years ago, (so often find myself on these threads!)

You are, of course, absolutely right.

1Catherine1 - one thing I would consider when you talk about only getting your d(d) a Spanish passport is it might raise questions at passport control- a child travelling on a different passport to the parents. It shouldn't as presumably the parentage is also confirmed on the ppt, but border agencies are tightening up and making more checks.

sigh

wish we'd consulted the all-knowing oracle that is Mumsnet before forking out...

Mind you they did give us a UK Birth Certificate (might be because Spain doesn't issue a Birth Certificate as such - the Libro de Familia plays the same role here) though obviously it states DD was born in Spain, otherwise it looks exactly like mine.

Bucharest, no not Nationality but not far off.

Yes UKBA are tightening up, rightly so after far too many unaccompanied minors making it to the UK and many ending up as asylum seekers and / or in the care of Social Services. However, as long as their are common names linking parents with children with a different nationality or as long as there is a full birth certificate or another document like a livret de famille / libro de familia where parents' names appear with the child's name, then there is no reason to worry about parents presenting passports different to their children. In fact, it's a good excuse to have a chatter, asking about how they find living in different countries, how they cope with cultural and language differences.

I'm not sure if you still are having concerns, but this is what I know.

Spain/UK doesn't have a dual nationality treaty, but you can have both nationalities which is slightly different to be dual. Basically each country consider you theirs.

There are exceptions to this rule a) nationality transmitted from being born having one of the parents being Spanish and the other British. Basically is called "jus sanguinis " b) nationals from the Spanish ex-colonies, so pretty much all latin-american countries, Philippines, etc.

Nor the UK or Spain will ask you to renounce to a previous nationality, but if you for example are Spanish and take another nationality later on, for example British, you have 3 years to let know the consular authorities or the government that you want still keep the Spanish nationality.

If you live in the UK, and you want to register your child as Spanish, because the father is Spanish. You will need to go to the consulate, I think it is free to do it, and you will have to take with you the birth certificate, and also you will need the Passport and DNI (Spanish National Identity card) of the Spanish father to do it. You will then be given what is called a Family book, and you can organise the Spanish passport.

My advise is that you go with your partner to the consulate, in case you need something or so. Their English website is: www.maec.es/subwebs/Consulados/Londres/en/home/Paginas/home_cglondres.aspx you can always sent them an email to ask what you need for registering the birth of your child.

You also got the form and the information (Spanish) here:

www.maec.es/SUBWEBS/CONSULADOS/LONDRES/ES/MENUPPAL/SERVICIOSCONSULARES/REGISTROCIVIL/Paginas/posting_TSW.aspx#sec1

The passport cost around £18 last time I did it and last for 10 years. It use to be 5 years before, but it has been extended. The Spanish ID only can be done in Spain in the Police administration offices and you need to make the booking online. It is done in around 30 mins, and you leave with the ID. You can have it done from birth this. I think it cost less than ?10.

I hope this helps to clarify the matter.