experienced mums - is this all normal 12 year old stuff?

[mamateur]

We recently acquired a 12 yo, he's DP's nephew, has been brought up by his gran, spoiled rotten, started behaving badly at school, refused school, etc. the upshot it, we now have him.

It's been about 3 weeks now and I think in general things are going well and we're having fun together.

BUT

Tonight he's sulking in his room because he was playing with the baby and he banged his head. DP told him to be more careful.

If I tell him off for anything, or say anything he does't like, he just removes himself to his room immediately. He doesn't slam the door.

Tonight he's just come in and complained about the lateness of dinner which will be another 20 minutes (I made him a big salmon and cream cheese bagel - his favourite - an hour ago!). I'd like us all to eat a bit earlier but it's tough when I have to bath DS and put him to bed first. DP is working upstairs.

He can't seem to cope with any criticism.

I feel like telling him its not a hotel and I'm not a servant, but of course a child his age has every right to be looked after and fed on time, right?

If he's not used to being told off, then he may not have any real clue how to react when you tell him off for things. You could try having a chat with him and explaining that you still care about him even if he sometimes does things which you criticise, and that it's all part of getting used to living together. The fact that he's not slamming doors or shouting makes it sound like he wants to remove himself from the situation because he doesn't really understand it, rather than because he feels he's in the right.

Very true, AMum. I asked gran what he used to do when she was cross with him and she said she just walked away and removed herself. So maybe he's reversing that behaviour.

Anyway, I just served dinner, he asked to eat in his room to which I said no, we eat in the sitting room but he could watch his programme on the laptop in here. First he said he'd 'eat later' so I said no, he'd eat now. Not shoutily, of course, just kindly. So he came in with the laptop and headphones so I said if he wanted to watch something he could just put the volume on. More stomps. SIlent dinner. Half-eaten plate in the kitchen and back in room.

If he was my son, or if I had brought him up, I would know what to do. I'm sure this is just really basic stuff. I just feel like I have no idea where our boundaries are. He hardly knows me really.

Do you think he'd respond well to you just sitting down and agreeing a few rules with him? Just maybe three or four things, and in return he gets to make some rules for you as well - within reason of course! Like, you expect him to come and eat with you and turn off the TV/PC for the meal. And you will knock before going into his room. He has to be in bed by X o'clock on weeknights, but its an hour later at weekends.

If he'd always been with you, these sorts of things would have developed over time, but you're still finding your way - 3 weeks is a short time to live together with anyone, specially when he's never had to fit in with other people before. But, on the plus side, if you can agree some rules for living together comfortably, he'll probably start to feel more settled.

Brilliant advice AMumInScotland.

He lost both his parents under one, granny has had him since then. She's produced a very sweet, thoughtful boy in lots of ways but just never really made him do anything - she believes people shouldn't be 'made' to do things. DP understands this very well because clearly she brought him up too. He has a brother and had a sister (DN's mother) who didn't fare too well. DP felt very strongly he could not watch DN go the same way.

He chose to come to us after some bullying at school (I do think in general he gave as good as he got). He was deeply embarrassed because someone started a fb rumour he pood his pants. He never faced them. Granny didn't send him back to school. He said he wanted to come to us so I suppose we are his escape route, but still, we have him now and can help.

We do lots of nice things together, we've been cooking lots, going out and playing with DS (he loves loves loves DS) and playing frisbee. He likes his new school.

He just WON'T be told what to do and I'm trying to work out his responses so we can deal with them.

It's HARD!

Thanks for your kind words- you raise very good points about our way forward. I think tonight was just a bad night. Last night we played scrabble, talked about his new school and played with nocturnal DS.

I worry my life is becoming a nightmare

I suppose with children you have to wipe the slate clean every night.

It really does help if they have agreed what they are going to do, so they can at least convince themselves they are choosing to do it, not just having to do as they're told.

You could also try to get him on-side about how having a routine will be a big help for DS, because "little children" need to know what they can and can't do (I'm assuming DS is quite small?), and what is expected of them. So, there are rules, which he helps sets up and agrees to, because it is a good thing for DS to have them as he's growing up. That might help him to feel that he is being a responsible older person rather than a child who is being "got at" by the adults.

mamateur

I think you are amazing and couldn't really be doing things any better than you are.

Could DP take DN for some "man to man" bonding? Ground rules etc may come better from him ... one-step removed and all that.

and great advice from muminscotland ...

what about getting him to help set up house rules for helping as he is the older child. you could ask his advice from the point of view as to how you would like your ds to behave as he gets bigger?

Thanks for your replies and kind words! If anyone is interested I've posted on this under incurableromantic and other names too, i think, if it rings any bells. I keep namechanging out of paranoia that he'll find them.

We absolutely always speak to him respectfully and kindly even when being firmer - otherwise I quite agree he wouldn't have any reason to return the favour. But last night he was very rude and I found it difficult basically because having him to live with us has made our lives immeasurably more complicated, yet I know he shouldn't need to be grateful. He's only 12.

I think try and try every which way to get his own way and only give up if we're completely consistent. My brother fosters troubled teens and will give us advice. Granny has given him so much freedom he feels quite grown up about making his own decision and we can't really take him back in time. I can't begin to count the times he was supposed to be coming with her or doing something and has not appeared with granny saying, oh in the end he didn't want to come. Then there would always be a phone call later from him, home on his own, age 9, saying he wished he had.

I think one of the problems is he resents the absence of a tv as DP and I just watch stuff on our laptops if there's something we particularly want to see. I couldn't bear it if there was crap blaring out all evening. He is happiest when we all play a game together, like scrabble etc. He definitely wants that whole family thing. What I mean by that is that I want to draw him in from the bedroom to have dinner with us and talk to us. I let him keep his bedroom as messy as he likes and don't go in there for fear of asphyxiation from his model kits.

Sciencebint in terms of rules, he's quite hard to pin down. One problem we have at the moment is he refuses to brush his teeth. He just lies quite convincingly and says he has done it, gets really annoyed with us for suggesting it - but he can't have done because we took his toothbrush away days ago . I've refused to buy him any chocolate or fizzy drinks until he's doing it properly. He's very stubborn.

I think the 'rules' think wouldn't work if we do it formally, sitting him down. If we do stuff like that he looks at us like we're morons. It's quite disconcerting! THe problem at the moment is DP is working all hours and I'm left on my own with him.

AMum thanks, DS is 12 months. He's brilliant with him and loves being his big brother. I think certainly I will say to him I don't want anger and rudeness in front of him. Good idea to foster his behaviour through him.

My 10yo is already totally hormonal and can get angry and rude quite easily. I think it's normal for the age (thinking of ds as an early developing 12yo), and try to be firm about it without taking it personally.

He will also shirk jobs like washing himself if he can: I try to make a joke of it, whilst making it clear that actually, I do notice and you won't get away with it,mate.

He also makes if perfectly clear that he finds me an embarrassment and a serious liability as far as his street cred goes. Yes, dear, quite, I thought the same of my own parents.

The you-are-total-morons look is also one with which I am becoming familiar. I try to ignore it as much as I can, and concentrate on pulling him up about actual behaviour. If he does as he is told, but with a sneering expression, I count the deed to his credit iyswim.

About the TV, I would probably do a deal. I have found that as my own children have grown older, I have had to compromise on a fair few things that I thought I would never want- because they live here too and their views count too- but it should always be a two way street. I have to compromise- but they also have to compromise.

If he has been used to relaxing in front of the TV, it might be quite unsettling to lose that opportunity just at a time when there have been big changes in his life (how would I react if someone took my computer away? Took Mumsnet away? ). So I would probably consider getting a TV, but limiting watching hours/type of programme/no watching at mealtimes-whatever strikes you as sensible. And I would expect a certain amount of arguing because that's what 12yos do.

Your problem is that you haven't had the time to gradually grow into a family with older children like the rest of us: it has hit you all of a sudden, and in the shape of a young man who is likely to be more unsettled and difficult to handle than many. So you haven't had time to adjust to the different experience of older children.

I would tell him that you are not his servant but in a joking fashion iyswim (my FILs favourite saying was "and what did your last slave die of?"). Ask him to lend you a hand, tell him he will have to wait, but try not to do too much simmering internally- they have short memories at this age.

Thanks Cory - that's really good practical stuff, particularly not simmering, that would be pointless I know, but as you say, we're very new to this. And nice to know we're not the only embarrassing morons around!

. He has use of a laptop to watch stuff online. I do think tv would be better, because we can switch it off whereas when he's in his room we have no control. We'll move in a couple of months and he will have a very big room, was thinking of putting a sofa in there and a tv although then I suppose we'll hardly see him.

I think it would be healthy for all of us if I didn't feel like I was running a hotel.

I've just had a long chat with DP. This morning was a disaster, he got up about 3 minutes before he had to leave for school and then when I told him to make sure he brushed his teeth he said he wasn't using his brush because we were using it. WTF! It's been 3 weeks! DP got really angry with him because he said it was lying to get out of doing things, he has a problem with DN's laziness. He left the house in tears without his schoolbag. I managed to catch up with him to give it to him about a minute later, and bizarrely caught him offguard looking completely unconcerned. Which makes me think he might be using the tears etc. a bit. Granny was always saying he was emotionally manipulative.

So I was annoyed with DP for being so cross over something so small but I kind of see his point - he has been promising me faithfully for the past few days that he's brushing them, although I knew he wasn't which is why I've been bringing it up over again.

So we'll sit down tonight and work out some rules of play. Probably have to lock him in the sitting room as he'll go to his room at the first hint of displeasure.

I think you are doing a great job.

In terms of the teeth brushing, I would get him to a dentist asap and get the dentist to explan about tooth decay, bad breath etc. Then let him make is mind up weather he wants to brush them or not. You can't control everything, let him take some responsibility for his own body.

Storming off sounds pretty normal (and mild in your case). The tears and then recovering sounds normal too, my kids have left me feelign awful and worrying all day only to come home right as rain.

I would suggest reading "Get Out of My Life: But First Take Me and Alex Into Town" as it does explain teens, and I find it helps with mine. (BTW expect some friction between your DP and your nephew, we get a lot between my son and his Dad, I think its a hormone thing. DD does her best to wind me up/hurt me too.)

He quite possibly felt you were trying to 'trick' him over the toothbrush, YES he should be brushing them, but i think at this stage you need to pick your battles.

It is totally normal to go through a stage of poor personal hygiene around this age.

Im trying think how he feels at the mo, it really cant be easy-everything has changed I would find such change hard and im not a 12 yr old orphan!

Im not in any way suggesting you havent thought of all this, i just think it will help you all work through this if you have empathy for your DN.[again not saying you dont - im just gi8ving an outside view]

Re the TV issue, I have a TV i would really hate to not have one-im not a TV addict! but i would hate it if i suddenly didnt have one.

I would let him have one-your idea of TV and sofa in his room in the new house sounds good, i think he would feel like he had his own space and probably help him feel 'at home' and part of the family.

"f I tell him off for anything, or say anything he does't like, he just removes himself to his room immediately. He doesn't slam the door."

"He can't seem to cope with any criticism"

Im also wondering if this is because of what has happened ie being 'sent' to live with you after being too much for gran.

He may be really worried that if he does wrong you too will send him away?

Sorry one more thing!

I think you're good people for taking him in, he is v lucky to have you and your DH as you are obviously trying really hard with him in what can't be an easy situation.

Sounds normal to me. He is nearly a teenager and tenagrers can often behave like this.

Amberleaf - it was his decision to come and live with us, the offer has been open for two years. We told him at the time it would not be easy as we'd just moved to a small flat (we got the previous huge one because we thought he was coming then he changed his mind). We moved onto a mattress in the attic and cosleep with DS to give him his own room and now have to pay a fortune to get out of our contract. This isn't something he should feel responsible for, but I do feel he's old enough to make some changes too, and have respect for us. His anger usually comes when we don't give him something he wants. If I've made something to eat he'll say he wants money to go to the shop and buy a wrap and a fizzy drink and then sulk when we don't let him. Granny always gave in on this, often ordering a pizza for him after dinner if he hadn't eaten much then was a bit peckish later on.

The toothbrushing issue annoys me because we talked about it for weeks, I gently said lots of positive things about teeth lasting a lifetime etc. He still didn't brush, so I said I wouldn't get him fizzy drinks or chocolate if he didn't. He promised faithfully he was. Then this bizarre comment about us using his brush! I don't think he felt tricked as he never worked out we took his brush away. I can't let him not brush his teeth, it will cause long-term damage and I have a duty to look after him. If he wants to smell that's his problem but he'll need his teeth later!

I think he's very very lazy and has never been made to do anything he didn't much fancy doing. That's the issue we have to deal with. Ultimately, he can always go home to granny if that's what he wants. We are leaving the guardianship order till he's properly settled in.

I'm willing to overlook lots of things but I want there to be boundaries because ultimately that's what he's been missing. It's tough, because it's not his fault he's been spoiled rotten. But of course we want to 'change' him because we want him to grow up to be a strong, independent adult.

And it's only just beginning!

Yeah the teeth thing! How can I get my DS (13) to brush his teeth?

I used to put the paste on the brush for him every morning and leave it on the sink then he'd brush them.

Since the beginning of the summer holidays, I stopped doing it hoping he'd take responsibility for his own teeth and he just doesn't brush them.

I've done the hinting ''what's that smell?" when he's been in close promimity to me.

Asked him if he knows what will happen if he doesn't brush them which he follows with ''so''.

They're his teeth, not mine, but you worry don't you?

BTW, you sound like your doing a fab job.

Thanks Limara, if you find a way let me know!

I'm now. I booked cinema tickets for a film he's been wanting to see because we have a babysitter, as a treat for the end of his first week of school. He's just said he doesn't particularly want to see that film and wants to go out for dinner instead. I'm so cross I feel like leaving him behind with the babysitter and going out for dinner with DP. And he doesn't like what I'm cooking for dinner!

Well, my ds has not been spoilt rotten, has lived in his stable nuclear family all his life, with firm and consistent boundaries agreed by both parents- and he still doesn't like what I'm cooking for dinner, and I have a rotten dress sense and nobody except me would ever try to impose such silly rules, and Daddy doesn't really agree with me: he only says what I want because I bully him. Charming little creatures, aren't they?

I find the brisk approach works best: No, I didn't want to hear that, thank you very much, we are going to the cinema/eating this dinner/going for a walk now- and then start talking about something else to distract him. Toddler tactics really, just slightly modified.