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Can I get close to unconditional parenting of 2 toddlers?

23 replies

bigtalksmalltalk · 11/09/2010 14:21

Sorry long and rambling - appreciate any thoughts!

I have 2 children 2.5 yrs and 16 months and try super hard not to say no too much. I don't want a rewards and punishments type of child rearing and want to try so hard to show my children that I love them unconditionally. However what I have read about this approach is really hard to put into practice and also I am ashamed to say I do very occasionally raise my voice to them as I feel frustrated and worn out (not a good week as husband has been away on work business for 6 days, older one has started potty training and there has been no nursery for older one this week). Also we have no family or friends nearby so it is me on my own.

I know one women who tries some variation of attachment parenting and we fell out over her toddler pushing my (then) baby and snatching off the two of them repeatedly and mother let him carry on and was horrified I raised my voice in panic when he pushed the baby. I do believe in praise so I am do not want to adopt the approach wholely. However I know another lady who often says her 3 yr old is "having a diva moment" and when she "has a meltdown" mom counts to three and daughter knows it is bad if she reaches the number 3 and mom will say "if you behave like a baby then I will treat you like a baby". This is repugnant to me and I do not want to be like that however I know I am no saint as I do show irritation and do snap at my elder daughter (e.g. turning light on and off as we try to climb the stairs). I try so hard to remember her age and what is going on for her at that age but I fail and I do not want to fail as my children deserve better and it is not acceptable for me to show my frustration to them.

I am hoping someone can give me practical tips on how to go about things in an open and loving way.

OP posts:
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toddlerwrangler · 11/09/2010 20:26

I m new here, so please excudse my ignorance, but I have never heard of this style of parenting?

It reads a little like letting your children do whatever they want and not telling them off means you love them? Please dont take that as an attack, like I say, it is new to me so I am strugelling to get my head round it?

TaurielTest · 11/09/2010 20:41

OP have you read the actual book (Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn) - it made a lot more sense to me than other people's interpretations or boiled-down versions. It doesn't really make sense to use praise if you're doing UP - not that you have to be a purist about it of course. IMO it's okay to let your children know you feel frustrated, if you can do it in a constructive way...
Hope some other UPish people are along soon with suggestions, I only have one DS so far so wouldn't presume to make suggestions about UPing with 2.
toddlerwrangler - no, that's not it :) this might give an idea?

TaurielTest · 11/09/2010 20:43

Here's what I wanted - the MN review of the book.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

IndigoBell · 12/09/2010 16:19

You can use praise with unconditional parenting - but only praise things which are genuinely good, rather than a constant stream of 'well done', 'good girl'.

Instead of praise you need to interact with them. ie 'Tell me about your picture' rather than 'What a good picture'

If you are doing a constant stream of praise then you are really not doing unconditional parenting.

Anyway, unconditional parenting is hard. Harder than reward and punishment which work really well in the short term. But unconditional parenting is about looking at the long term and the big picture.

vesela · 12/09/2010 20:13

I like Alfie Kohn, and I shout - well obviously I try to um, model better anger management, don't we all, but I shout. I think it's important that children should realise that X behaviour will cause people around them to be frustrated and angry, i.e. that they get that feedback. (I try and tell DD that I'm getting frustrated before blowing my top...)

IMO Alfie Kohn isn't about hiding your feelings, but about not manipulating children with rewards/punishment/praise because it doesn't get you anywhere and it doesn't help them build up their own strong moral fibre.

bigtalksmalltalk · 15/09/2010 13:09

Thank you for your posts - it has taken me a while to get back to this as have had a few days of bad sleep. I am probably going to go ahead and purchase the book but I am also looking for any practical advice. I am tired of the sound of my own voice saying to one of the children "don't do that, don't do this" certain things I know I have to do like 16mo standing on small wicker chair that could easily tip over. I just feel that I so want to get away from the nagging and controlling and let them be at bit more and I guess I would like some help with that.

OP posts:
colditz · 15/09/2010 13:16

Of course it's acceptable for you to show your frustration to them, they are human beings who have to live in the real world, not bloody la la land! Do you honestly think that playschool leaders, teachers, and parents of other children will stand there and coo at your cild 'learning' if what the child is doing is disrupting everyone else and frustrating them? No. Your child will be told to "Stop that please. No, right now, or I will count to three and you will go into time out"

Go into a nursery and have a look at the approaches used. If you are never ever going to reprimand your children, don't be surprised if they become terrified of anyone who will - this means all the other adults and children in the world, by the way.

colditz · 15/09/2010 13:19

i was raised with punishment and praise, as are the vast majority of the world's people, and my moral fibre is rock solid.

I have also worked with young offenders, and the VERY worst young people to work with are the ones who will smugly toss their heads and say "Mum loves me anyway!" The most common types of parenting to show up on a parenting course are the ones where the parents don't like to say no because they are frightned the child will feel unloved.

vesela · 15/09/2010 20:34

It's got nothing to do with not saying "no" to your children. IMO the parents who give rewards all the time are the ones who are scared to say no, scared to ask children to do something without giving them another reward.

vesela · 15/09/2010 20:43

also, while we were probably brought up with punishment to a greater or lesser degree, were we really brought up with this many rewards? endless stickers and little toys and star of the day certificates and all the other things that just get devalued because they're constantly being doled out? I don't think it was that common in the 70s.

BertieBotts · 15/09/2010 21:09

UP is not incompatible with discipline. It's still possible to teach your children to behave in a way you find acceptable while following this method. Mainly the principles are avoiding rewards and punishments (especially those which involve withdrawal of affection from the parent). But really discipline goes much further than rewards/punishments anyway, so properly handled it's possible to manage without.

It's often misunderstood as "Praise the good, ignore the bad" or even worse "Let your children get away with everything" - which is met with much criticism, and as you've found OP, is unworkable in certain situations e.g. the toddler climbing on a chair.

I think that most people following UP tend to stick to a gentle/holistic discipline style. Remember that the word "discipline" means "to teach". Don't focus on the behaviour you want to prevent, focus on the one you want to encourage. Try to turn a negative phrase "Don't snatch" into a positive one "Wait your turn" "Don't climb on the chair" becomes "Sit down" "Stop screeching" becomes "Indoor voices"

I have got more to say (there is a lot more to this) but have to go - will be back later or tomorrow.

shufflebum · 15/09/2010 21:20

Bertie Botts, please do come back when you have time, your post was very interesting as I have never quite got my head around the practicalities of UP but find the concept appealing.
Apart from Alfie Kohn's are there any other books you recommend.
Sorry for hijack bigtalk!

vesela · 15/09/2010 22:04

The other one that draws on the same principles is this one, which is maybe also slightly more useful with regard to the OP, since Faber and Mazlish make it clearer that in their view you should let children know you're angry.

BertieBotts · 15/09/2010 22:14

I'll do resources first. Resources on this are so hard to find. For ages I thought that "gentle discipline" just meant time out rather than smacking - but really it's a whole philosophy and to my mind it's much more rounded (so I tend to call it holistic discipline. Better name as well as "gentle" can sound a bit wishy-washy)

How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk - A brilliant all rounder. If you only get one book get this one.

Playful Parenting

Taking Children Seriously

Also a long running old thread: How to Talk so Kids Will Listen.../Unconditional Parenting/TCS thread

Page from an online friend's website - This page is great actually, she has a knack for summarising things much more succinctly than I can. Also many links as you click around the site. She has three, so two is not impossible!

You can find more resources, recommendations, discussions etc by searching "gentle discipline" on google. You will find a lot of religious sites but it is worth reading them, even if you are not religious.

BertieBotts · 15/09/2010 23:47

Okay getting onto the next part of my post (sorry for the delay!)

On saying no - I try to avoid saying "No" and use a more specific word. I use "Careful" a lot (And DS now says "Erful, Mummy!" which I think is cute), the old standby "Hot!" for drinks etc, or something like "On the paper!" if I see him drawing on a table, as he did earlier today (he ignored me even after I offered him paper, so I took the pen away in the end)

Actually this is a good example to illustrate another point - DS was upset when I took the pen away. But still, I don't see it as a punishment. It was a necessary step for damage limitation. The difference between this and a punishment is that it wasn't intended purely to be an unpleasant consequence. If he'd have shrugged and gone off to play with his cars or something I wouldn't have thought "Oh no, I'd better do something else, that clearly had no effect." But equally you shouldn't be afraid to do something which will upset your child, because sometimes it is necessary. (I haven't finished reading UP yet but so far this is the bit I feel he isn't very clear on.) You can do it in a respectful way (give a warning, ask for the pen, count to three, etc) and you should explain and you can apologise "Sorry DS, I know you want to draw, but we don't draw on the furniture." or validate feelings, especially if they are very upset, "I know it's hard when you can't have something that you want"

The other big thing is working out why you think they are doing something and instead of just dealing with the behaviour try to solve the root cause. Aggression or violence for example is often caused by stress or frustration, and removing the cause of stress or frustration is not always possible, so you need to show them an appropriate way to deal with those feelings, like drawing a picture, saying it with words, throwing beanbags (or maybe teddies?) at a wall, just arbitrary suggestions and obviously what is appropriate will depend on the age of the child, but it is a starting point.

Related to this is if they can't do one thing, e.g. climbing on a chair, can you provide something which it is safe to climb on? Actually if the wicker chair was that small I'd be tempted to let them climb on it anyway, they wouldn't be seriously hurt from a fall, and babies are actually quite good at testing their own limits if you give them a chance to. Dining chairs are more of a worry though! The only thing you can really do with this is to always supervise her around such dangers, field her away from them as much as possible, and then just ask verbally once or count to three and after this one verbal instruction/counting, pick her up and move her off it, as many times as it takes, or remove the chair completely until she is old enough to understand it, if it's at all practical.

But generally I let DS explore more than other people tend to let their children. I have stairgates and wouldn't let him do anything ridiculously dangerous like play near an open window he can reach, I don't have that much faith in his protective instincts! But let them fall to an extent and experience gravity, let them manage small steps etc by themselves, and if they DO have an accident don't whisk them away if they want to go back to doing the same thing. I used to do this with DS and I noticed that he would avoid that situation for a while and then suddenly go back to it one day and hurt himself again, whereas when I let him go straight back and try again he was really cautious, testing his limits etc, before making a step or whatever, and he'd work out how far he could go and from then was more confident on that particular climbing frame or whatever and much less likely to injure himself.

Lastly it's worth reading a bit about child development and being sure that what you are asking/expecting is age appropriate. For example, the overriding cry you will hear at toddler groups all over the country is "Share!" but actually, the average 1, 2 or 3 year old still engages only in parallel play (ie playing alongside rather than with other children) and the concept of sharing is alien to them. If they are playing with a toy they don't expect half of it to be messed around with by another child and they find it hard to deal with if this does happen, usually ending with fighting between the children, snatching the toy away or upending the whole thing on the floor. Taking turns is much easier for such a young child to understand. At 1 not so much (though you can certainly start showing them) but certainly at 2 or 3, if you go through: "Sally's turn; wait Daniel, well done Sally! Okay, Daniel's turn... good, Sally's turn..." etc etc, most of the time they pick it up fairly quickly. Surprisingly enough even the most "selfish" children seem to react well to this. It's like you've suddenly explained it to them in a way they can understand. Sometimes DS has a wobble when he wants to have the first turn and I make him wait but he soon comes round.

My head hurts now so I hope that some of that makes sense! :)

BertieBotts · 15/09/2010 23:48

Oh crap, it's a novel Blush

shufflebum · 16/09/2010 11:33

No it's brilliant, just what I needed thank you!
I have How to talk which I love but perhaps will be more useful a bit later on as DS is only 17months. I also have Playful Parenting but found it a bit samey, perhaps I should give it another go as I only skimmed it.

Will have a look at the online stuff tonight.

LarkinSky · 16/09/2010 13:21

BertieBotts, I'd just like to thank you for a really well-written post - I've actually copied and pasted it away to show DH.

The examples you use and your behavioural descriptions really make sense even to my tired and addled brain. Much appreciated!

BertieBotts · 16/09/2010 20:17

Thank you Blush

It's what I said before though - this isn't a quick easy to remember solution like a naughty step or a sticker chart. I managed to ramble on for ages in my post and I could probably go on for longer on various tangents etc. In the main part once you understand the underlying principles you can then use these to apply to any situation. It's just working out exactly what the principles are!

Forgot this link last night which I think is another good thing to keep in mind:
goybparenting.com/?page_id=54

BertieBotts · 16/09/2010 20:22

(Although one thing I disagree with in that link is that I do say please. I think you can be polite and still be firm and sound like you mean what you say. And I think it is disrespectful not to say please - I wouldn't like DS to think that he only needs to say it if someone is bigger or more important than him.)

BarrelOfMonkeys · 16/09/2010 21:17

Thank you BertieBotts! Your post has clarified a few points where the book confused me - v useful.

shufflebum · 16/09/2010 22:09

yes I agree, I always use please and thank you in the vain hope that one day I will hear it back!

doggiesayswoof · 17/09/2010 17:13

Marking thread to read later - I am really interested in this as current methods (if you can even call them that) are not working with my two and I'm unhappy with all the focus on the rewards.

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