Need some advice about tricky situation please..

[basketcase]

Not sure this shoudl go here, sorry if wrong catagory. Sorry if it is a long rant but really angry and not sure what to do next..

Ok - we live in a small village with lovely warm community, small primary school. Important that the children all get along well and mix as there are so few of them - any problems seem magnified when class sizes are tiny.
The children have all been together through toddlers, playgroup and preschool. One mum has a young 4 yr old boy who is a nightmare (she also has a younger DD who is delightful). We all try to include him/them in group get togethers - can?t avoid them as they are at the village swings everyday. Only so many times you can turn down an offer of a cuppa or playdate. I have turned down her offer to go back to her house all summer and fnalyl gave in out of guilt.
He was horrendous - more than usual.She carried on making excuses for him as usual - he is tired, he is not used to playing with girls, he is only over excited, he is copying the naughty big boys and what they do in the playground etc.etc. He ended up kicking my DD1 so hard on her bottom that she actually fell to the ground. He ran off tearful in a huff. This happened right in front of us. I ran to help her up, she called out after her son in a wet voice "ooh, don?t do that, come back and say sorry now.." or course he didn?t. She then turned to me and said "well, I guess she was probably annoying him!" ridiculous as nobody deserves being kicked for any reason and she only asked him if it was her turn to play on his tractor - she was being really good considering she didn?t want to be there any more than me.
I maded my excuses and left. DD has a rectangular shaped bruise about 4x1 inch - huge on her tiny bottom. I am so upset. I feel guilty for putting her in that position, annoyed with myself for not handling it better and challenging her about it. DH is furious with her and with me telling him that he can?t go round and have words.
We can?t avoid them as they live so close and see them everyday - esp come Sept in the same classroom. He has no discipline, there is always a reason and excuse and other mums have the same issues. One woman challenged her when he bit her son and she sobbed hysterically, went home and acted as if nothing happened the next day. What on earth should I do?? I don?t want my DD bullied like this and yet when actually there in the moment just seem to be unable to shout back at her..

wordsmith, very tricky situation and I DO sympathise. Its a bugger about the hole in the fence situation. I don't know what you can do to help the mum other than ask her a few kind questions and see if she knows much about support or, indeed, if she gets any. How you withdraw from the "shared" garden is very difficult though. Thinking of the boy with AS as devious is probably a bit harsh although he certainly could be devious but in an odd way? He may only see things from his pov and not understand or care about any impact on others or grasp what they may think about it.
I DO tell my DS off to make sure that DD gets the message that, whatever it is he is doing that we're not happy about, she can see that he gets told off.

Well it does happen. I'm used to it happening in our home though so tbh it doesn't phase me and I supervise accordingly. DS2 has marks left from ds1 ages ago. I'm trying to teach him when to walk/run away from him.

I described a situation earlier where I have a friend who (IMO) doesn't supervise her 2 SN dd's closely enough. I do avoid seeing her when we have all the children because I can't lug ds3 around (and he needs to be held to be safe from her 2 dd's) and lift ds1 down from whatever he's doing. DS1 also pinches her dd2 in a really bizarre way, like a game, which I didn;t understand until someone told me her dd2 pinches as well- so I guess she'd pinched him first and he thought it was a game. Anyway- it's too difficult with 5 children; 1 baby, 1 3 year old and 3 with SN between 4 and 9. No point seeing her anyway as we can't talkif they're all there.

TBH I've said it earlier but I don't think SN and NT do mix if there are behavioural problems which there commonly are. I feel for the people with bordeline SN children with behavioural problems as they are stuck in a very hard place. It just comes doown to how important the friendship is to you. The person I see regularly has known me since we were 12 months old, we grew up together and she is the closest I have to a sister. She doesn't worry about posessions- hence wasn't fussed by her mobile landing in a stream- and has 4 children herself so is used to chaos. I'm very lucky to have her. Her nephew has ADHD/AS - dx on hold- and i know her younger children were quite scared of him at times, but he's calming down now so even that is getting easier.

Davros I do that as well- but then ds2 always says "why doesn't ds1 have to sit on the naughty step?" ummmm chance would be a fine thing!

Does your dd wind your ds up on purpose yet? That's a real pain when it happens.

Jimjams,

They behave quite well for me, but it's more the influence they are having on my son when they are alone with him, IYSWIM. I have overheard things I don't really like and DS tells me that "X and Y said this and that". I feel I have to keep offering a counterpoint to their comments.

I know she (the mum) has received some support but apparently the level of AS doesn't warrant a great deal of extra support at school. I am not 100% sure of the situation now. Again I think her biggest problem is that she has a useless slob as a partner, they are totally broke, and she has just given up. The house is always a tip and since they discovered ebay, is just full of crap that the 8b year old has persuaded his dad to buy - for some reason, a safe, and an overhead projector as toys? - the dad is just as much a kid as the two boys.

I honestly feel that her life would be 100% improved if she left him and was on her own. But she's not his wife, the house is in his name and I'm not sure she realises that she would have no financial support.

As for the medication etc I am not sure what he is on, if in fact he is on anything. The diagnosis is quite recent and as I said the level of 'disorder' is mild.

And being a tyrant with my DS1 - I feel I am a tyrant all the time at the moment!

No I meant be a tyrant with her ds1! Not yours!

TBH I'm not the best person to ask as I just don't have the hands on experience of this. Give me non-verbal and I'm in my element and all the challenging behaviour we deal with is in front of us because our children can;t really be left alone. So its not the same sort of problem.

I think I misunderstood - thought he was ADHD- he would be unlikely to be on medication for AS.

There is a lot of support etc out there that she could access, but it woon't just come to her unfortunately. It sounds like an impossible situation. I guess keep on explaining to your son. Perhaps be busy all the time? Hard one.

Wordsmith, it must be awful having to give a counter argument all the time to what 2 bloody kids have said! The poor woman sounds thoroughly beaten but I'm not sure what you can do about it. I agree that children should not be subjected to being hurt or even being scared. In any of these situations it sounds like the options are trying to probe about the situation with the mother, trying not to isolate her and so having to massively supervise when necessary or simply decide that's not possible and keep away if possible but therein lies the rub.

Thinking about this It does come down to supervision or not- that's the only answer if your children are being hurt. In something like wordsmiths case (and probably robina) the situation is hard becuase the children are of the age and are sufficiently high functioning that they would usually play unsupervised. The only thing I could think of is doing organised thigs like the cinema/bowling etc where the supervision level can be high. If their behaviour is bad in public you don't need to worry as its not your child!

No idea how to close the hole in the hedge though.

what is SN?

Jimjams, misunderstood there!

I'm not sure at all about medication, She said they thought he had ADHD but I am not sure whether this has been diagnosed.

I am busy a lot of the time, but you can't go out every day (I'm knackered enough as it is!)

Davros, I agree, there's not much I can do. We are quite close as neighbours but not bosom pals, and I doubt if she would offload onto me totally, Tbh I have such a lot on my plate with work and kids that I don't know if I could take on someone else's problems. I have done so before and ended up in a pickle myself.

But it is hard to listen to the yelling day after day. Part of me thinks "Christ what a racket" (and it's difficult sometimes when we have friends round in the garden and they kick off next door) but the other half of me thinks how would I cope in her situation? I yell at my kids too sometimes, if I didn't have the support of my DH, work to occupy my mind on other things than kids, and children who aren't as badly behaved as hers, i am pretty sure I would be just the same.

closing the hole in the hedge could be done (fence it off) but it would be a huge psychological blow for her because (I believe) it would signal a rejection of her and her family and deprive her boys of what I know she does see as a 'civilising' third party (ha! My DS1! Civilising! what a bizarre idea).

Also they do enjoy playing together and I would say about 80% of the time it does work. It alway ends in tears after a few hours though.

pray for rain

ghost - sn stands for special needs.

I have just found some clear head time to read through all the posts on here carefully and really really appreciate so many thoughtful and considered ideas, suggestions and points of view.

It is very very hard to be understanding and sympathetic towards the mum when she excuses and twists the blame away from her son every time. It is really difficult to keep putting my children in this situation knowing that they are actually in physical harm?s way - without any exaggeration. Too many children in the village have been bitten, pushed over, kicked, shouted at loudly till they cry, intimidated etc etc for me to just do nothing at all.
I think the last straw was when she tried to make out that my DD was actually to blame in some way and it was her fault for being kicked when we were both there and heard/saw everything that went on..
Saying all that, your posts have made me see it all a little clearer and a lot more sympathetically towards her.
A group of mums do meet up once in a blue moon for a night out and she has come along a few times. Unfortunately, her anxieties and slightly eccentric personality makes her hard to like and chat to. Ironically, her desire to be seen as a good mum means that she just can?t stop going on about the dangers of food colouring, her disgust that some of our children weren?t already asleep before we went out etc. etc. Again, I am sure this is her insecurities showing but bloody annoying to here all the time as well.
Take yesterday - on our way to the park, path goes right past her front door, she is loading them into the car and I hear the "helloooooo" so stop , smile and say hello. He is already screeching that he doesn?t want "that pooey girl" coming to the zoo with him...mum ignores all he says and comments "ooh, isn?t she good on a scooter..you will have to get mummy to buy you a crash helmet for that now you are going along pavements..." - typical. Rather than acknowledge her son?s rudeness, she finds something else to focus on - again, rather than positive she has to have a little dig at us. My DD wears a cycle hat on her bike but don?t bother on her scooter as we live in quite culdesac two seconds from the swings and stay on pavements GRRRRRRR.

Right, all that off my chest. Ok - so she isn?t a perfect mum and still likes to criticise. I can live with that - she is clearly on the edge, unhappy and so next time I have a plan. My children are going to mix with all the children in the village and I am not going to hide away. Instead I am going to keep a close eye on my own when she is there with hers and try to pre empt any problems if/when they occur and step in myself if she doesn?t. I am not about to discipline her son but if she says nothing/fails to try to stop him then I will attemtp to calmly step in and negotiate with a blanket "both of you must start playing nicely together..."type way so as not to be seen as picking on him? what do you think?
I am also going to give her a few opportunities to chat and try a few opener casual friendly "so, are youi all ready for school?" and "do you think he is looking forward to going?" and see if I can steer the conversation on to how he is with other children and about boundaries and ground rules....
Probably going to see her Monday so if anyone thinks these two tactics are inappropriate or likely to offend/could be done better, please let me know as I am genuine in my desire to make this situation change for everyone in the least confrontational, most understanding and calm way possible

thanks again - particularly jim jams as I know how close to your heart this is. I am sorry if I have appeared insensitive and rather ignorant of what other parents in different circumstances have to deal with - it is not intended and I appreciate being given a few poiinters. I know I ramble on and never have time to edit my posts so I really appreciate it when people respond as much as they do.

Is she the stage whisper food colourings woman from the other thread? If you don't really like her I don't think there's much point in going out of your way to see her, but when you're in a group glue yourself to whichever of your children is the most vulnerable (that's what I do with the person I mentioned earlier with 2 dd's with SN). Actually her dd is very rude as well- she kind of can't help it as she has severe learning difficulties- although I think her mum should be working on it more because it's not going to help her have a happpy adult life in care iyswim. For her own sake it needs to be dealt with. Luckily to date most of it has been directed at ds1 who doesn't understand what she's saying and wouldn't care anyway that she hates him, and wants him to go away (in his house!) and wants to "get him out of here". DS2 has enough sense to stay out of the way.

The "looking forward to school" approach sounds a good way to get started- see what happens then.If she is open to suggestions suggest behavioural support or an ed psych to start with. clinical psychs are better- but often not the first port of call.

Hmmm hope I didn't sound too critical of the mother I know not dealing with her dd's rudeness. The problem is that the behaviour is now so entrenched it's going to be incredibly difficult to tackle. We all have these sorts of things though- problems that should have been sorted as they arose but we missed it and they slipped in. In our case it's sniffing people. DS1 now sniffs everyone. I should have stopped it as soon as it started, but because it started with us I didn't really notice. Problem is its now a way he explores his world and he sniffs everyone including strangers. No idea how to get rid of it though it's so entrenched. Just goes to the bottom of the list of "behaviours to deal with".

thanks jim jams.
No - the woman from the party was a different one with older DD. I think I must live in one of the most competitive and politically correct type places tbh. Our village is full of stepford wife wannabes. It is only chatting to people outside the village and places like mumsnet that I realise that a lot of commonly held views here really are a little extreme. I like to try and bring my children up as best I can with reasonable diet, clean clothes, exercise, manners, plenty of activities etc. but as one friend puts it - if you take a picnic or snack to the park, better make it a tub of freshly made organic hoummous and carrot sticks and leave the squash and crisps at home... as for using cheap sun tan lotion...
I do like her most of the time as I can really empathise with her as a mum desperately trying to bring her chidlren up as best as she can. Especially with the keeping up of the high social standards and "values" we seem to have evolved within the village community. It is just the defensive prickly stuff I find hard to swallow at times. TBH I could do with all the friends I can as I am quite shy and find even organising playdates casually quite stressful - maybe we have more in common than I care to admit, just shows in different ways.

basketcase, just read this thread and I think you have the knowledge and sensitivity to work things out with this woman. It's a balancing act between not isolating her and protecting your children. I think you've got some good advice. Hopefully school will bring about a change for this woman - if the teachers are good as you say they are, they will help her get the support she needs and she will be clearer about what behaviour issues her son has.

I do think it's a good idea to step in and talk to your friend's her son if you feel the urge. You don't have to make it a personal attack, just say something like ' no hitting please, we don't do that do we'
I am shy too, but can say this sort of thing now without qualms - and other parents will say it to my sons, too. IME It is possible to say 'stop that now...' in a nice but firm way and not cause offence to parents. If she starts quivering, you can always quickly follow by saying something nice to her about her son -there must be something nice to say about him even if it's 'what loveley hair he's got'.

May I just say I am so very, very glad I do not live in your village. You sound great, but the thought of having only competitive, PC parents as my neighbours, and knowing I am stuck with them at school and at home would do my head in.

Another thought - a friend of mine has an older boy with ADHD. He was about 9 when we first got to know them and for the first few years, my jaw regularly used to clang on the floor at the behaviour he was allowed to get away with and how rude he could be to adults (he could also be incredibly kind and very very funny). Then she confided that he had been diagnosed with ADHD. I went away and did a very small amount of reading up on it, and everything fell into place in terms of how they dealt with him and why he was allowed to "get away with" seemingly bad behaviour. For example, Dr Christopher Green says the following about managing ADHD:

"Parents need to learn how to aidestep escalation by keeping calm, active ignoring, counting techniques, time out and giving choices".

My point is that it was much better for all concerned that she was honest about the situation, otherwise everyone just assumed her son was an out of control brat and she was an ineffectual parent. My children were not of an age where I needed to explain things to them but I guess I would try and approach it in the same way as if a child was physically disabled.

Saying all this though, you're right, you cannot continue to put your children in a situation where they're going to get hurt. But your plan sounds like a very good plan for dealing with things - good luck.

basketcase, do come back and let us know how you get on.

thanks for the continued support and words of experience and wisdom. I do read all your posts carefully and it is helping me a lot to get my head round this one. I have even been dreaming about that playground AAAAAGGGGH.
I didn?t see them yesterday but fully expect to see them today as I know she was planning to go to the softplay centre this morning. We are going along and taking DD1?s little friend so going to have to be as positive and active as possible to make sure they are all safe and have a lovely time. Will let you all know how I get on xx

I haven't read all of this but Jimjams you sound like a fab Mum and I just thought I'd tell you cos its not often our 'work' is noticed let alone praised. I'm sure oyu're not looking for praise but I think its a lusky family that has you to rely on

That's a lucky family! Not lusky!

Basketcase, just catching up on this. I think your plan of how to deal with this is very good. You've given it a lot of thought and you're willing to be reasonably accommodating to her, although I'd find her spikey remarks a bit hard to put up with! The behavior of children with SN CAN be dealt with and managed, only it is a lot harder work and you can't tackle every single behaviour but important ones need to get the focus.

I had an interesting experience last weekend. I took DS to the "sculpture, memory garden" which is an airy-fairy, arty-farty idea but actually very nice! Basically its a ramshackle garden with lots of "interesting" junk (art?) lying around and there isn't much that the kids can do that the people there classify as "wrong". There was another kid there who I reckon had ADHD. I sat under a tree and was trying to keep out of the way but I saw everything that went on. ADHD boy whinged to the girl with him that he'd cut his finger so she went to get a plaster. The second she was out of sight he tipped up a bottle of barley water, threw the cups all over the places, dropped a pile of junk into the water butt, threw a rug into the pond and threw a pile of tiles onto the ground until they smashed. He didn't do it for attention as no-one else was around and he seemed totally unaware of me. Every time he whinged that he wanted to do X, by the time she'd got some stuff together he was long gone, mentally if not physically. He was "cheeky" throughout the session and bloody annoying! Obviously we were in a place for children with SN so I knew he had "something" and the only other noticeable thing about him was a sort-of sing-song voice. I didn't say anything but thought I'd mention the water butt before leaving!

Basketcase, I did wonder what would happen if you approached your village friend mum & said

"I think that your son has some kind of disorder, causing him to behave more boisterously than other boys. Something that he can't control and that isn't his fault or your fault. But he might need specialist help."

How badly would she take that?

If he does had adhd/something, the school will be picking up on it sharpish in the next few months, anyway.

I think your plan of action is exactly what I already do with my kids, or feel that I ought to! That's why I don't sit and gab at gatherings.