Need some advice about tricky situation please..

[basketcase]

Not sure this shoudl go here, sorry if wrong catagory. Sorry if it is a long rant but really angry and not sure what to do next..

Ok - we live in a small village with lovely warm community, small primary school. Important that the children all get along well and mix as there are so few of them - any problems seem magnified when class sizes are tiny.
The children have all been together through toddlers, playgroup and preschool. One mum has a young 4 yr old boy who is a nightmare (she also has a younger DD who is delightful). We all try to include him/them in group get togethers - can?t avoid them as they are at the village swings everyday. Only so many times you can turn down an offer of a cuppa or playdate. I have turned down her offer to go back to her house all summer and fnalyl gave in out of guilt.
He was horrendous - more than usual.She carried on making excuses for him as usual - he is tired, he is not used to playing with girls, he is only over excited, he is copying the naughty big boys and what they do in the playground etc.etc. He ended up kicking my DD1 so hard on her bottom that she actually fell to the ground. He ran off tearful in a huff. This happened right in front of us. I ran to help her up, she called out after her son in a wet voice "ooh, don?t do that, come back and say sorry now.." or course he didn?t. She then turned to me and said "well, I guess she was probably annoying him!" ridiculous as nobody deserves being kicked for any reason and she only asked him if it was her turn to play on his tractor - she was being really good considering she didn?t want to be there any more than me.
I maded my excuses and left. DD has a rectangular shaped bruise about 4x1 inch - huge on her tiny bottom. I am so upset. I feel guilty for putting her in that position, annoyed with myself for not handling it better and challenging her about it. DH is furious with her and with me telling him that he can?t go round and have words.
We can?t avoid them as they live so close and see them everyday - esp come Sept in the same classroom. He has no discipline, there is always a reason and excuse and other mums have the same issues. One woman challenged her when he bit her son and she sobbed hysterically, went home and acted as if nothing happened the next day. What on earth should I do?? I don?t want my DD bullied like this and yet when actually there in the moment just seem to be unable to shout back at her..

Fqueenzebra, That was soo refreshing to hear that my son is "normal" - I always have to dash in mid conversations as well.

nope I disagree I don't believe that kind of supervision is normal with NT children .. my 4.5 year old goes upstairs with his mates and I don't see him for ages. The same goes with most of my friends' children from about 2 up. I even don't have to supervise my baby.

However I do and would change my behaviour when with children who have more challenging behaviour either cos they have SN or are brats

Sorry what is NT?

My son is 4 and a half and he's not Sn, but can be a bit boistrous and wanting to explore evrything (nothing dangerous) - his nursery and Hv believes his very intelligent. It can be a bit embarassing when he goes into other people's houses.

Sorry Creole. NT = Neuro Typical

NT means neurotypical.

I'm not saying that anyone with boisterous children can completely switch off I am responding to robina's earlier question. If you are used to supervising NT children (or ones without behavioural problems to keep SN out of it) then you might not be used to the level of supervision required. You literally have to glue yourself to their side. DS2 who is 3 can be left to get on with it, can walk down the street with me without having to hold my hand, is currently downstaiirs playing. This is not said to try and say oh I have it so much harder- I know I do- I wish I didn't- it's to try and explain how much supervision is requirted if robina wants to see her friend with children.

Ghosty has a boisterous boy and a baby girl- she's been to stay with us- and although I have to say ds1 was an agel whilst she was here she did see a difference. if she's around ask her, she can tell you.

Sometimes it does become too difficult. I have a friend who doesn't supervise her children properly (2, both with SN). Since having ds3 I have found it very hard to see her because I cannot put ds3 down when she is here (not safe to). And if I'm lugging him around- even if he is in a sling- it's very hard to lift ds1 down from the fridge freezer, off the playhouse roof or whatever else he is doing- he is big for a 6 year old. So basically I can't provide the level of supervision that is required. Generally I try to see her when she only has one of her dd's and I don't have ds1- then it can work. IN fact Ghosty had experience of that as well as I told this friend she couldn't come back after picking up her dd from school (by which time ds1 would be home as well). It just doesn't work.

actually she hasn't phoned me since I said she couldn't come round after school - maybe she's in a strop with me?

Basketcase, I've been thinking about this since I read the thread and would just like to contribute the following. I am also completely non-confrontational and would rather bury my head in the sand and avoid situations rather than have to say anything. However, this does nothing for my stress levels.

I had a similar-ish situation to you in that my dd1 was being picked on fairly mercilessly by one particular girl and becoming very unhappy. The mother (a friend) was blissfully unaware, so I just avoided all situations where the girls would be together, including visits to the park (so all my kids lost out and I missed seeing any other mums).

This has been eating away at me and I was dreading the girls starting together at school in September. However, a mutual friend that I had confided in seized an opportunity to tell the mother what had been going on. The mother was mortified and she then asked to meet up with me to discuss things. We've now agreed what we'll do if it happens again and I'm now looking forward to my little girl starting school - as I should have been. My tension and stress about this situation has disappeared overnight.

The point of this ramble is to try and show that even if speaking to this mother seems daunting, isn't doing nothing going to cause you even more stress? She sounds like she's crying out for help IMO and I think you could come up with a strategy that would mean you didn't have to creep round your village avoiding her. If the situations were reversed, what would you want her to do?

I think you're right flashingnose- she does sound as if she s crying out for help. In those sort of situations I think asking her how she is coping is always a good way in- and talking about how she finds dealing with his behaviour- rather than, initially anyway- talking about how it impacts on you (after all she's having to deal with it 24 hours a day and if she keeps bursting into tears obviously isn't coping with it) always works well. I think people who are in denial tend to get stroppy when asked, people who are worried and not coping cry. BTW don't worry too muchif she crys. When we're having a bad time with ds1 it's always people being nice that sets me off - I never cry if someone has upset me, only if they're nice to me. My friends have said the same.

It sounds to me like Bcase's friend is in denial because she generally acts and says things like her son isn't that unusual. When she bursts into tears it seems like she's half-admitting to herself that something is wrong, but she's thinking it's her fault and that she can still "fix" him... either way, she sounds very in denial about the fact that this kid is quite probably not NT. Maybe she is seeking a diagnosis in private and just can't admit it publicly, but doesn't sound like that at all from the quotes Basketc gave.

Jimjams, I imagine that having to closely supervise a 6yo in the same way I have to watch my 14m old is a pain. Lots of times when parents on MN of SN kids (the same age as mine) say something like "Isn't it terrible that this happens!?" I think, "but that happens to me, too, and my kids are NT" Usually I keep my mouth shut because somehow it's perceived as still different by whoever said it (even though my kids are the same age and having the same issues). If the statement's made in the context of the child's age, though, that may be very different...

Anyway, it's not all that "easy" having NT kids, they need lots of the same sort of hard work, too....

I'm not saying its easy zebra- I have 2 NT kids of my own! I know what its like! But the difference is in the ages. DS1 is 6 - can do more than a toddler and has far less social understanding than a toddler so the levels of supervision are far higher. (for example the majority of toddlers don't actively try to escape from a back garden with a shut gate- ds1 (and many others do) - I recently described how I almost lost him onto a main road because he got out of my friends garden (whilst I was there watching him- but I was feeding ds3), and had a sufficient head start that I couldn't catch him (and he's bloody fast- dh is gutted that he'll never fulfill his sporting potential).

I suspect you can go to the beach, go on plane, walk down the street with all 3 of your children, go into a shop, go to the moors, go to disneyland, go to a fair, go to the Post Office, go to the cinema (maybe not with all 3), go on a bus, go to the zoo, drop one of your children at nursery/school. I can't do any of those things when I have all 3 of mine with me, and a number of those I can't do even when I have ds1 alone.

Part of the reason that social services have given me such a high level of support (18 hours a week during school holidays and 8 hours a week during school terms) is because of the supervision level that ds1 requires. It means that if I am watching him to the level at which he is safe then the other 2 do not get the attention they need and we can't go out. Over this holiday I've used their money to have 12 hours respite from ds1, and 18 hours a week for someone to look after ds2 and ds3 so I could take ds1 out. This isn;t becauuse he is particularly difficult but because he requires such high levels of supervision.

Anyway as I said earlier this not about a pity fest- it's our life whatever, it's the way it is- I was using it to try to explain to Robina about the level of supervision that will be required if she wants to see her friend with children. It can be done, but it requires far more supervision than most people are used to giving. And sometimes it isn't worth it- depends a lot on how important the friendship is.

I think being in denial (publicy) about whether your child is NT is very normal. No-one wants their child to have problems after all. Especially in cases like this, where if there is something wrong then he is very high functioning. Often parents of high functioning children are the ones absolutely desperate for help. DS1's clinical psych has said that- they're the ones she sees who are completely at the end of their tether.

Back again.

I will probably have to let my frindship slide then as I have four children and cannot give the degree of supervision necessary in the circumstances. Now if I could follow her ds around that might be a different matter but he's 9 years old and might object. Besides which, it's not just that, it's how much he's allowed to get away with that I don't want my children to see. For example, in the middle of a meal in a restaurant he walked out - just disappeared for no reason other than he felt like it. He's always hurting his sister when his mum isn't watching and he does some very dangerous things. But none of these things seem to result in any form of admonishment let alone punishment. But then, if has adhd, perhaps his behaviours have to be dealt with in a different way, I don't know. It just makes it very difficult deal with and I just felt it was too much stress to be dealing with.

Does he have ADHD?

Yes.

Leaving a restaurant would be perfectly normal behaviour for a child with ADHD btw. Ds1 doesn't have ADHD but definitely doesn't do restaurants. We have a big family meet up in a restaurant once a year and take it in turns to walk him round the car park. Luckily my mum's side - who are willing to help out and all takke a turn.

All the things you've listed that he does are normal for ADHD. ADHD is one of the hardest conditions to parent because the impulsivity is so great, it makes it extremely difficult. Same as ds1-- his autism is a PITA (especially the no language bit) but his OCD is actually harder to handle as it takes over his behaviour. That and his complete inability to waiit (although he can do about 20 seconds in a shop now- thanks largely to school I think)>

The sad thing is I know it's not the mum's (or his) fault he has adhd. I've no idea whether she manages him as best she can as I've no idea whether normal strategies work. It's just the impact it has on my kids. They don't want to "play" with him any more and I can't blame them.

I think you have to protect your child from being assaulted and if that means not seeing them, that it has to be that way. At the same time, I do feel sorry for your friend who is clearly very upset and not coping. If she is a friend, could you see her without children or talk to her on the phone etc?

Like I said it depends on how important the friendship is. I have one NT friend that we see. Most places are too hard work anyway as the houses aren't ds1 proof (front doors don't have high bolts, upstairs windows aren't locked, microwaves are plugged in, garden gates aren't lockable, garden fences are low etc etc). In our case ds1's behaviour towards other children isn't really the problem as he doesn't really go for other children and he'd rather keep away from them (ocassionally comes over a bit odd and strokes their hair or something), but no 90% of the time SN and NT don't really mix unfortunately. I think the worlds are too far apart. I think its been a shame for ds2, but maybe things will get easier when he gets to school (and I guess ds3 will follow in his footsteps).

Well, I think it depends on the nature of the SN and the degree of the aggression. Ds loves going to his physiotherapy playgroup, plays (or tries to) happily with kids with all sorts of disabilities - Downs syndrome, autism, cp - thinks it is funny when the little boy with DS tries to pull his hair and is incredibly impressed by the non-verbal boy's use of Makaton. But if he was regularly being bruised and upset by any child it would be different.
The mum of the non-verbal boy is coming for tea. Ds thinks he is very clever because he can sign.

It must be really hard to be the parent of a child with SN and I have nothing but admiration for you all - it's hard enough with 'normal' boisterous boys.

We have 2 boys next door aged 5 and 8 (my DS1 is 5 and I have a 16 m DS2). We all get on well and even have fashined a hole in the hedge between our back gardens so the boys can run in and out of each other's gardens and play together (providing both mummies agree). My DS1 is quite boisterous but the 8 year old boy next door has recently been diagnosed with AS and some ADHD, whilst the 5 year old is just plain naughty. DS1 loves playing with them but is also easily influenced, and I have caught both boys next door egging him on to do things he knows I don't allow and he knows are naughty. The AS 8 year old can be extremely devious although very thoughtful at other times - I suppose as he's a lot older than my DS (but is very small for his age so looks younger) he's a lot more 'knowing'. The 5 year old has already been in trouble at school for bullying but as AFAIK has no diagnosed behavioural probs.

Their mum tries her best but, tbh, she is ineffectual and they run rings round her. I am gobsmacked by the way they scream at her and the language they use, and dread DS1 picking any of this up and thinking it's OK. She has zero support from her useless slob of a partner but also seems to lack the will or insight to take control of her and her boys' lives herself. Most days (especially the LONG.....summer holiday) it is screaming from both the boys and their mum from dawn till dusk. It doesn't help that they go to bed really late (my DS has to be in bed by 8 most nights) and never seem to go out anywhere or have any school friends round. Their mum seems to be losing it but I really don't know what to do to help. I know she likes her boys playing with mine and most of the time it works from both our points of view (ie she gets a break from their constant fighting and my DS1 stops whingeing about being bored!) but I am worried that DS1 is going to think that their naughtiness is the norm (we keep telling him it's not). I sometimes wish we had never started the 'hole in the hedge' thing - They want it open EVERY day and I want to limit it a bit now DS1 is getting older and more naturally devious himself!

Do I sound like a cow or can anyone sympathise with me?

The agression often comes as they get older. Ds1 does pinch now (adults and children- adults mainly). It's not really something I'd describe as a problem behaviour now as his new school have got it under control (mainstream managed to escalate it beyond belief). He doesn't pinch because he's cross- if he's cross or frustrated he damages himself- not others. He pinches children because he wants to see inside mouths (and children who are pinched scream). He pinches adults in the hope that they will shout. The louder and angrier the funnier. Luckily child wise he sitcks to children he's very comfortable with so that has been his siblings mainly (and for about a week some children in his class at school).

I always think its sad that the people with children with the most difficult behaviour (through no fault of their own- different if they are rearing a brat) are the ones who end up the most isolated. Its one reason I am now pretty anit inclusion except in special cases where it is working well for the child. I think it is incredibly diffcult for the parent. I love the fact that I now have coffee mornings that I can go to where everyone understands and we can all just laugh. So nice to be one of the gang rather than the odd one out again.

My friend seems (on the surface) to be coping very well really - never seems upset but then she is a very positive bubbly sort of person. They live 2 hours away from us so not easy to meet up without children. But I should get on the phone to her - will do that.

DO feel very sorry for basketcase though because she can't just avoid them.

But Jimjams, if any of your kids were being left bruised and frightened by another child, what would you do? I completely understand the isolation thing, of course I do, and I don't mind how kids behave tbh. Amazed that some people make other people's kids eat up all their dinner etc. And of course, ds has bitten other children and pushed and stuff in his time, but if he was genuinely scared and genuinely hurt, then I don't think as his mother I should put him in those situations. It's very difficult.

I suppose with toddlers who bite and push you just try to supervise very tightly, but if it's only you supervising it can be hard.

I'm a step behind wordsmith.

If he's been dxed is she getting any help? I think that ADHD is probably the most difficult condition to parent and it is very very easy to completely lose control (and then the younger one will copy- ds2 tries copying ds1 although the difference is great enough that it's fairly easy to stamp out- harder with ADHD).

The best sort of help is things like clinical psychology. Does she have access to the service. Also reviewing whether medication could help. Preventing situations is always better than dealing with the fallout- but is exhausting (because of the level of supervision required), and is probably impossible if she is by herself.

Tricky one- could you offer to swap kids for a bit (ha ha). You could lay down some really strict ground rules and be a tyrant for a morning- maybe he would then behave every time he saw you (easier to be a tyrant for a morning than 24/7)