Need some advice about tricky situation please..

[basketcase]

Not sure this shoudl go here, sorry if wrong catagory. Sorry if it is a long rant but really angry and not sure what to do next..

Ok - we live in a small village with lovely warm community, small primary school. Important that the children all get along well and mix as there are so few of them - any problems seem magnified when class sizes are tiny.
The children have all been together through toddlers, playgroup and preschool. One mum has a young 4 yr old boy who is a nightmare (she also has a younger DD who is delightful). We all try to include him/them in group get togethers - can?t avoid them as they are at the village swings everyday. Only so many times you can turn down an offer of a cuppa or playdate. I have turned down her offer to go back to her house all summer and fnalyl gave in out of guilt.
He was horrendous - more than usual.She carried on making excuses for him as usual - he is tired, he is not used to playing with girls, he is only over excited, he is copying the naughty big boys and what they do in the playground etc.etc. He ended up kicking my DD1 so hard on her bottom that she actually fell to the ground. He ran off tearful in a huff. This happened right in front of us. I ran to help her up, she called out after her son in a wet voice "ooh, don?t do that, come back and say sorry now.." or course he didn?t. She then turned to me and said "well, I guess she was probably annoying him!" ridiculous as nobody deserves being kicked for any reason and she only asked him if it was her turn to play on his tractor - she was being really good considering she didn?t want to be there any more than me.
I maded my excuses and left. DD has a rectangular shaped bruise about 4x1 inch - huge on her tiny bottom. I am so upset. I feel guilty for putting her in that position, annoyed with myself for not handling it better and challenging her about it. DH is furious with her and with me telling him that he can?t go round and have words.
We can?t avoid them as they live so close and see them everyday - esp come Sept in the same classroom. He has no discipline, there is always a reason and excuse and other mums have the same issues. One woman challenged her when he bit her son and she sobbed hysterically, went home and acted as if nothing happened the next day. What on earth should I do?? I don?t want my DD bullied like this and yet when actually there in the moment just seem to be unable to shout back at her..

i think you need to have a chat with her.
Go around one evening maybe without the children and just explain how you feel.
Maybe this child has a problem? if her other child behaves well,itmmight not be lack of discipline. Hearing problems etc can cause behavour problems.
Good luck!!

thanks mumtosomeone. I guess your advice is really sensible and probably would have given it to myself. Just that I am not the sort of person who finds going round and having a quiet word particularly easy. I am really shy in rl and find confrontation, however mild, quite upsetting and difficult. I know I am sounding pathetic here and must put my DD first and stick up for her. Oh hell. The thought of having to deal with this is really stressing me out. I know you are right but just wish there was another way other than moving house or avoiding all communal locations...

I know!!
I can give the advice..but would i do it myself? Probably not!!!
But I dont see another way around it.
Unless you wait till school starts see how it goes and have quiet word with teacher?

Does the other mum have a friend who is closer to her then you but you could talk to about the problem?

Or are there any other mums there who feel more able to discuss the issue with her?

Horrible situation.

Well obviously she isn't managing his behaviour, she sounds mortified (bursting into tears), but as if she doesn;t know what to do so I don't think telling her that he's out of control will do much good.

Before I knew what was wrong with ds1 I took him to a toddler sports group, I explained to the organiser that he had langauge delay (ha ha). Anyway point is he was a nightmare, didn't attack any children but was completely uncontrollable. I left sat in the car sobbing, then made dh ring the organiser and say we wouldn't go again.

I needed help with dealing with ds1 - luckily as soon as he was dxed we got that help and now I know what he can and can't manage.

Anyway point of this ramble is that it sounds as if the mother needs some sort of help. Behaviour support teams (provided by the LEA) are often very good. I've heard that they are usually very non-judegmental and very good at understanding the issues. If you do decide to talk to her it might be worth suggesting that she asks at school for a referral to behaviour support. She can't just be a dreadful mother if she has a "delightful" dd.

Oh also I was given lots of strategies- and they usually work quite well. Now we work closely with school as well, but the approaches we needed were very particular and had to be taught (after we knew what to do he went to a mainstream school who applied usual techniques- and bloody hell what a disaster- they escalated situations continuously- now he's in a special school where they have a lot of experience in challenging behaviour life is much more peaceful for everyone again). Point of ramble being she probably needs help rather than judegment.

thats good advice!
I do think he may have some problem..hate that it sounds awful!

thanks guys - I appreciate you posting.
I have spoken to two other mums about this as we share similar experiences. She is very attached to one of my friends and her son is equally disagreeable with her - pinched her on the arm etc. She has tried to talk to her but has found that she is overruled with excuses or "oh I know you must think me a bad parent but I am trying my best..." type tearful answer which means that the real issue of her son?s behaviour and how she deals with it gets forgotten and time is spent telling her that she is a great mum and has a lovely clean house etc. etc. out of embarrassment that she is so distraught. I think that she must be aware of it - I even wonder if she is a little frightened of her own child.
Whilst I know that I should speak to her, I think I won?t have any more luck than my friend had tbh. I am going to avoid all playdates and keep close eye on my children when they are around the village and have a quiet word with the class teacher. She is great and I am confident that I could put it tactfully to her that there have been issues in the past between the children and ask her to keep an eye out. As an ex teacher I am more comfortable about doing it that way knowing that I can avoid sounding overly protective etc. than speaking directly to his mum. Crazy. DD has just demanded that I take her to the park so better sign off and spend some out door time with them while the weather is good.
Thanks - I feel better just for typing it all out and getting a bit of understanding and support. DH was in such a wild state about it when I told him - typical angry dad "no-one hurts my little girl and gets away with it" type reaction and I needed a bit of sympathy and understanding not more emotion - good old mumsnet

Thanks jim jims - I think you are posisbly right about his behaviour being more than just a bit "naughty". The school is very good at supporting and identifying special needs so maybe they will be able to act quickly.
I agree that she is not a dreadful mother - just one at the end of her tether and in total public denial which is so frustrating for others.

Please don't isolate her- at least not until she find out whether he does have a problem (if he does) and has a chance to make some SN friends.

I do know how difficult it is to be around children with challenging behaviours- both ds2 and ds3 spend a lot of time with children with SN (we only have one family with completely NT children left as friends). You just have to watch them like you would a toddler to make sure they are safe- and pick them up/remove them from any situation.

Or send the poor woman on here - the fact that she can;t talk about it without crying shows that she a) knows there is a problems (and may be scared about what it is/ or may just feel powerless to do anything about it) and b) is getting isolated.

It'll also be very hard for her daughter if she ends up completely isolated because of her brother.

It's not necessarily "total public denial". When ds1 was 2 I knew he was autistic, but knew we were a while of diagnosis and tbh I just didn't want to discuss it with people who didn't have a clue what it was like. I had close friends that I talked to and sobbed on - and everyone else I just tried to hold it together. DS1 didn't ever go for other children (at that age anyway- and he doesn't really now) so it was a lot easier for me. BUt the fact I wasn't talking about it to all and sundry didn't mean that I was in denial- just that I couldn't handle talking about it to everyone.

Oh that sounds awful .. for everybody

Even with a generally well-behaved child, every parent must know what its like when that stubborness kicks in and you just can't seem to control their behaviour ... imagine how frustrating that must be every single minute of the day

the woman sounds pretty desperate and folorn to me

and I can understand your frustration and hurt too

It could be bad parenting .. but it doesn't really sound like it does it? it sounds more like the child might have an undiagnosed disorder ..

is there anywhere you can turn to offer her support .. can you recommend mumsnet to her??

sorry didn't read thread first .. so I agree with jimjams

as an aside could you maybe arrange a night out with a few (not too many) nice mums and invite her along to give her a bit of a pleasant break??

awww twiglett you're so lovely. I hope I was standing next to someone like you in Argos yesterday (ds1 was screaming, headbanging the counter- because I was hol;ding his hands to stop him punching himself- and completely entangling himself in his belt/harness thing). I think looking in a catalogue offended him! Apart from that I was very impressed with him- first time in town for as long as I can remember (clarkes come to us now he he). I didn't have time to notice the looks, but would be nice to think someone thought "blimey" rather than " dreadful mother"

Just because her dd is well-behaved doesn't mean that her parenting skills (or lack of) are not to blame for her ds's behaviour. Imo it doesn't matter what problems the boy may have, there is no excuse for her reaction that your daughter was annoying him.

In your situation I would say to her (or get your dh to say to her as he seems keen!) that you won't be meeting up with her when her ds is present and explain why. She needs to know that her lack of action (ie.parental control) is having consequences for both her ds and her.

I do have a similar situation with a lovely friend of mine (fortunately for me she lives quite a long way away) whose ds is out of control - he does have problems, adhd, etc. but I just cannot let him upset my children the way he does nor allow them to see that he "gets away with it".

Of course she's not parenting him appropriately. What I'm saying (and Twiglett) is that her son appears to have the sort of behavioural problems that are outside the norm. She sounds as if she acutely aware that she is not controlling his behaviour. She probably doesn't need to be told that. Unless you can suggest WAHT she does (things like tell her son what to do, not what not to do, ABC approach, remove triggers, countdowns etc) then telling her she's no good isn't actually much use.

Of course anyone has the choice to keep away- which is what most people do when faced with challenging behaviour. I'm just saying it is possible to remain friends and still see someone when their child is diffiuclt, and protect your children. I do it all the time. (Not because I;m Mother Teresa; because otherwise we wouldn't see anyone).

Wasn't meaning to contradict your replies jimjams - I was just thinking of how basketcase's situation is similar to mine and what I've had to do. I didn't tell my friend she wasn't parenting very well or what to do - just said that it was upsetting my children too much. She understood fortunately but then she's always been very open about her difficulties with her ds and doesn't make excuses for his behaviour. Unfortunately I haven't seen her now for 6 months as she lives too far away to do anything without the children.
How could I have maintained the relationship between our children do you think (this is a genuine question as would love to see her regularly again and she has a lovely dd too!)

There's only one way- you have to take responsibility for your children's safety which means hovering over them and removing them as soon as something is about to kick off. It means the time isn';t very relaxing, but hey welcome to our world - you can always tell the mother of a child with Sn and challening behaviour because come any gathering where everyone is gassing, relaxing and drinking we're the ones not making eye contact in conversations (always watching the child) and the ones dashing off mid sentence.

We see children with unpredictable behaviour all the time.ds2 is now 3 and a hlaf and ds3 is 7 months- nothing really bad has happened to them. Ds3 has been picked up - 1st in his car seat, then just him- by an 8 year old with zero understanding of babies and safety (both occasions I was distracted). DS2 was pushed over a couple of times when he was 2. Other things that have happened is our walls have been drawn on (doesn't really register), and books have been drawn on. Not much else.

The worst thing ds1 has ever done in someone else's house is throw my friend's mobile phone in her stream. I offered to buy her a new one- she refused, I offered her my old one and she refused that as well (she's the one NT family we see so I'm glad she took it so well).

I just don't think in this case there's much point telling someone who realises they have no parental control that they have a brat of a child. Smacks a bit of rubbing salt on an open wound. Bit different if the mother is completely oblivious, but all the tears in this case suggest to me she is struggling.

This situation sounds as if she is in a similar position to my friend's SIL. Her son tended to bite other children and it went on for years. She tried everything (and saw behavioural support from when he was 3, now she sees clinical psychology which is helpful as well). I know she got to the stage where she could hardly go out, and if she did would end up coming home in tears. As he's got older his behaviour has improved although it remains difficult, but now she has open access to the clinical psychology team she can get advice as and when situations arise.

IME most people aren't prepared to mix with children with difficult behaviour. We have very few places that we can go - and to be honest ds1 doesn't go for children (he steers well clear of kids, although pays some attention to siblings/classmates). I have to watch him in case he damages property or- more likely - damages himself.

I do think its a shame- it doesn't bother me now as I have plenty of SN friends, but I really feel for people new to it all and just getting increasingly isolated.

This child's behaviour may not be an undiagnosed problem. It sounds a lot like my niece when she was little and it wasn't an undiagnosed problem more a family problem. She is 13 now and a real interesting character. She seemed to grow out of it.

The point I'm making is that the reasons behind the behaviour could be many and as an outsider you will never know. If you can't talk frankly to her about the possibility of a undiagnosed problem then you probably have to do what you think is best for you. You shold give her a chance to talk about it though.

'you can always tell the mother of a child with Sn and challening behaviour because come any gathering where everyone is gassing, relaxing and drinking we're the ones not making eye contact in conversations (always watching the child) and the ones dashing off mid sentence.'

oh i can relate to that!!

Um, I have 3 chldren under 6 and I also don't mix/chat much at gatherings or gas it up... only none of my kids are SN. To me that's normal supervision that I have to do things for my kids and supervise them. The 14 month old is on a path of rampant self-destruction, the 3yo is unassertive but gets into quiet mischief (colours her arms with pens, etc.). The 5yo is lovely but seemingly reckless and frightens the heck out of people not used to the fact that he can climb anything.

Anyway, Basketcase, if it were me I would just have to turn down all future invites. The way the woman keeps excusing her son's behaviour, I couldn't accept that at all.

it's often quite easy to get someone to talk if you approach sympathetically " he's quite difficult isn't he, how do you manage when......., how does he respond to...., do you know anyone else with this sort of issue, there's this great website where lots have been through the same thing and have lots of anonymous advice" etc etc.

tbh zebra - I think the level of supervision required is different, and this is often why these sorts of situations arise. For instance normally I would assume that ds3 is safe in a room with me and an 8 year old girl. The most dangerous situation he has been in was when I was in a friend's garden, ds3 was on a rug beneath a tree, and I was standing with my back to him about 10 paces away putting suncream on ds1. I turned around and she had picked him up - was sort of holding him out - and bearing in mind that she has run off with strangers lapdogs, and thorwn her cat over the bannisters (not naughtiness- just not understanding)......

Likewise if ds2 (age 3) goes upstairs at the same friends house to play with her ds (age 4) then we don't have to follow them. If ds1 goes upstairs in people's houses I have to go upstairs to make sure he doesn't fall out of a window for example (she didn't follow her dd upstairs at a freinds house and she climbed onto a conservatory roof).

of course all children require supervision- but if you are around children who lash out suddenly, or do dangerous things because of lack of understanding then you literally have to glue yourself to their side. If we are out in the open ds1 has to be holding someones hand- we cannot let go unless we are in an enclosed area. Not even to walk from the front door to the car. This is the sort of level of supervision that I am suggesting is required in these cases.

She in the conservatory roof story not being the cat's mother but my friend Her dauughter was upstairs with 2 other girls- a 7 year old and a 6 year old- btw which was why she hadn't followed her. she thought she would be ok in that situation....