surrounded by "princesses" please help!

[bigtalksmalltalk]

My eldest daughter is almost 2.5 yrs old and the other mothers I know are starting with the pink princesses, dolls, spangly shoes etc etc - are all women doing this? Please tell me that there are women out there who don't want this for their daughters? They have also started saying how everything is pretty and beautiful and starting the process whereby their daughters will judge themselves by their apperance (I never hear people saying such things to boys!). I keep quiet about my views as it is not for me to comment but I loathe this stuff so much!

nowt wrong with pink/sparkly in and of itself, but in moderation either way. I know one mum who won't allow her DD to wear pink, I think putting a ban on it is just as harmful (and ridiculous) as going OTT with pink stuff. I think it's worse at an older age though possibly? when they really start thinking about being pretty etc.

generally I object to gender stereotyping, I was in Maccy D's (I know, I know) when they did star wars toys, and a little girl was told by her mum "no, you can't take that home, that's for boys"... erm... WTF?!

I just want DD (just 3) to be who she is IYSWIM. sometimes she has pink, sometimes not. generally in ELC I'll go for the blue/green, rather than pink. I tell her she's beautiful, but I also tell her she's lovely, kind, clever, funny etc.

her favourite toys ATM are the ELC cottage with a pink roof, and her wooden train set. says it all really

I reckon she doesn't even know yet that 'boys play with boy toys, girls play with girl toys' and I'm happy about that.

My DD is only 19 mths, so early days yet.

I have no real problem with dressing her in pink (I buy her clothes cheaply, and most of the cheap supermarket stuff is pink, unfortunately), but I refuse to go down the 'Princess' route and if DD is swayed down that route (which I am sure she will be, once she is old enough to be marketed to), I will do everything I can to counteract it. That's not to say I won't allow her to have dolls and wear sparkly fairy outfits, but I hope we can balance it out with lots of getting stuck into sporty, messy, 'doing' stuff and praising her for being funny, clever and strong, not just pretty and sweet and kind.

At the moment, she is benefiting massively from having a big brother. She doesn't own any dolls, and is far more interested in books, footballs and trains. Long may it continue.

I do have a massive problem with the emphasis on girls being made into a) pretty little dolls and b) little 'mummies'. These things are great - who doesn't want to dress up and have fun? And it's lovely to learn about nurturing through play - but science and sports and active play should be for both sexes and I won't have this shit pushed down my DD's throat. No way.

Sorry to pick up on your post, reasonable- but why do you see princess and funny, clever and strong as mutually exclusive?

It is our generation, not our childrens' who has been brought up with the idea that girly means flippant, weak, and lightweight, and that pink signifies this. The colour is not the villain here. We need to reclaim pink!

All is not lost though..

Watching or looking after animals have no "gender" attached.

Nor does going to the park.

Nor sports.

Nor bike rides.

Books, DVDs and craft activities don't have to do either.

I definitely understand your concerns and have them myself.

My DD is 2.2 and I also try to steer clear of any girly stereotype stuff. But she does have a pink tutu in the toybox (a hand-me-down from my sister) which she loves to put on, and also some pink clothes.

But I usually dress her in jeans/trousers (which she is fine with) because when she falls over it doesn't hurt so much. She also has a really cute elfin style haircut (because she used to cry when I brushed her hair when it was long).

I love the fact that she doesn't look 'girly'. My FIL is mortified

I don't do anything to promote pink and I don't do anything to steer her away from it, I just let her take the lead. She has a twin who is a boy so it is quite easy to treat them exactly the same iyswim.

My sister spent 5yrs trying (and succeeeding) to convince her DD that her fave colour was orange - after a week at school her fave colour was pink. Sometimes you just can't do anything to stop it!

Why don't you want them to be 'mummies'? What does that say about how we value mothers?

"The colour is not the villain here."

exactly!

I can see your point, tethers, but I attended a very interesting presentation on the (depressing) lack of women working in science recently and it really got me thinking.

When you walk into a toy shop pretty much anywhere in the UK you come up against the most gross gender stereotyping imaginable. I was in Toys R Us recently and my senses were assaulted by a vast aisle of glittery pink stuff - dresses and Disney princess tiaras - alongside zillions of 'domestic play' stuff - little ovens and hoovers and buggies and tea sets - all in the Girls Aisle.

The boys aisle also had some shitty gender stereotyping - trucks and cars and swords and pirates - but it also had all the fun stuff - the sports equipment and the science kits and the lego and meccano.

Reclaiming pink comes way down my list of priorities when faced with this sort of shit.

Like I said, I have no problem with my DD wearing pink, but the 'pinkification' of girlhood is as bad today as it was when I was growing up in the 1970s. It hasn't moved on at all. in fact, i would argue that the Disney-Princess-ification is much worse, now that merchandising opportunities are so massive.

Does it really matter as much as people make out ???
As a mum of 3 girls, I was pink-averse, but have now embraced it.
Our house has plenty of toys for visiting boys to play with - all the ones that we've bought for DDs over the years JUST IN CASE they wanted to play with them (trains, cars etc) - but they don't.

Yes, the commercial side of it is hard to swallow, but does it really matter if girls grow up associating pink=girls, boy=blue ??? What is the big deal ?

Try having a 3 year old DD whos favourite colour is blue, loves cars, trains, spaceships and pirates and is so oblivious to disney princesses it amounts to selective blindness . And finally who wouldn't be seen dead in ANY girls clothes, let alone pink.

THEN try not feeling a little bit sad that you can't buy anything a tiny bit sparkly .

I'm trying to respect her choices and be the person she wants to be though. I'm hoping this is just who she is rather than something I have pushed her into, becuase she did wear a lot of neutral or boys clothes as a baby (handed down from her male cousins). One of her main drivers is adulation of those older cousins.

I'm about 18 and a half weeks now 20 week scan next week.

I don't mean to have a go, reasonable; it's just that I was/am so anti- pink and anti-girly, and when I had my DD I was forced to face up to my own stereotypes of what being female meant, and why I was trying to stamp out any sign of my 'girlyness', as if being like a girl is something to be ashamed of.

We are at risk of teaching our daughters that it's only traditionally male toys/roles which have any value

Pink tea sets and the like don't do the damage- it's the value we place on them as a society that does.

Fantastic, Duelling

Have a great scan.

Yes, I think it does matter@FourDucks. Very much.

I'm not saying 'ban pink'. I love the colour pink, personally. But what I am saying is that children are like sponges. They imbue all the messages - subtle and not so subtle - around them. You can't protect them from everything, of course not. But I think it's important to at least be aware of the effect it can have.

We have a zillion female childminders, primary school teachers, beauty therapists, hairdressers, social workers, nurses etc but so few female scientists and inventors. I do think the shitty gender stereotyping that goes on in childhood account for a lot of that. Yes, I really do.

FourLittleDucks

This is about a lot more than the colour. Sadly.

And you say "boys' toys", speaking about cars and trains. Do you not think your girls will ever want to travel in a car or a train? Never mind drive one..

ReasonableDoubt.

I agree with you on the Disney thing. When we were kids there were princesses, of course there were. They just weren't so overwhelmingly DISNEY! I would even argue that all those fairy tales, in their original versions, were not really all that gender specific.. But Disney has pinked it all up to such an extent that the boys wouldn't be caught dead tuning in..

Oh, I do agree, don't get me wrong@tethers. Dolls and teasets and domestic play is important and should be seen as just as worthwhile as 'boyish' stuff. I just don't like the way it is always aimed at girls.

My Ds was one of those odd kids who preferred his toy shopping trolley and dollies to rough and tumble (and I swear, it was nothing to do with my rampant feminist tendencies! ).

When he started school he soon learned that Ben 10 was much more acceptable . He still secretly loves a good doll's tea party, though...

And, by the same token (caught me on a bit of a roll here today..) do boys not use cups and plates?? And, god forbid, cook????

Then why is there no campaign to ban blue or encourage boys to play with tea sets?

I suspect it is because deep down, we have a loathing for our own gender- I know I did. Probably still do if I'm honest

I think you will be suprised where influences come from.

Dd1 (4 and never a pink, girly child) wants to be in the police. Because that is what she thinks her dad does (he works in law enforcement - the police was the sort of short cut of explaining to her what he does).

Dd2 is 2.6 and as girly as they come. I have no idea why they are so different, they have been brought up the same, same parents, same parenting. I can only assume it's either in the genes and they will be girly whether we like it or not, or there was some subtle influence on my 2nd child (different friends? More girls around as she was growing up?) that made her this way.

Rather than fighting it, go with it, make sure she has choices and encourage whatever it is she takes an interest in.

"What is powerful is what pink has come to signify"

Well exactly.

Tethersend.. That's sad..

I would happily take part in the campaign to encourage boys to play with tea sets.. Mine does. And play food.

To be honest, it had never even occurred to me that they were "girls' toys".

I think there should be one campaign - to stop blatant gender stereotyping by the manufacturers and sellers of children's clothes and toys.

I am equally as sick of the sight of tee-shirts with 'cool surf dude' and pictures of flaming trucks on them as I am of all the horrible 'mummy's little princess' stuff.

It all pisses me off. Can you tell?

Yep, you can tell!

I know, mamsnet- but it has been the most interesting journey challenging it. It is very subtle, but I see it so much in people who think they are challenging stereotypes; in fact, they are just inverting and reinforcing them. Pink is a case in point.