Asylum seekers and immigrants.

[doormat]

Carrying on from benefits-unfit parents thread.

Any views on this subject anyone????

Scummy, I know what you mean about not being able to change minds...so I think I will be throwing the towel in. I'm all for having an opinion, just not when it has no factual basis and is the product of hearsay or sterotypes. It is very hard not to get so angry that a debate becomes impossible, but hey thats what all my university training was for.

Btw, I really hope BM wasn't a Sixth former I fancied, there were a few And he was probably in my Aunt's year.

Oh dear I meant to put that on the benefits thread, Scummymummy.

Musica,

you stole my thoughts, and can I just add, in relation to economic migrants, that most of these countries are poor because we in the West have exploited their lands for centuries??
I think we all owe them something, if only because we've been so lucky as to be born in a country where even if we couldn't earn a living, the state would take care of us (somehow). Most people in the rest of the world don't have that, they don't have enough to eat, how's that?

Just remember that the vast majority of the world's wealth is in the hands of a tiny minority: tha includes all of us in the Western world!!

Perhaps people would feel more comfortable with asylum seekers or, to say it better, refugees if there was seen to be more honesty.

That is, the refugee claimed in the first safe country they went to as is the law.
They stopped lining the pockets of lawyers with endless appeals.
They were not moved enmass into poverty stricken areas and given homes fully furnished when "British born" neighbours can't afford things (although cigs and alcohol never seem to be a problem for some of them.)
People who offered services, nurses, doctors etc were given the chance to work, as some of them want to.
All "dodgy" asylum seekers, i.e. the spongers are sent packing asap and not left in appeal limbo land.

I think the detention centres are positive as if the asylum seeker is genuine they will see it as the starting post and will help with information to gain them access to Britain as a genuine refugee. They may be grim but they should not be considered longterm.
I worked in the passport office for a while. There was a joke that the first thing someone did when they came into this country was apply for a British passport. Honestly, some of the documents that were sent were like school projects!!!

Webmum i couldn't agree more.

"Honestly,some of the documents that were sent were like school projects" Not sure whether that is meant as a derogatory comment or not Paula1.It sounds it to me but maybe you would like to explain?

I feel so saddened by some peoples'attitudes.Some members of mumsnet really have no idea on how most of the world live.And even worse have no inclination to find out and absolutely no desire to understand.

Sorry I meant Paula 71

Yes it was me who posted about Iraq and I would like to say that Blair is not mine - I have never and will never vote for such a man!!! I do not know what to do about Iraq - would I have sent troops in - there are so many conflicting stories - Iraqis saying that they want us to go home, others saying that we must stay and not make the monumental mistake of leaving like we did last time and Sadam punishing all of those that helped the allied forces. Something had to be done to topple that awful man and of course lives (both iraqi and allied) were going to be lost. I am sure that you would have felt that the path taken was right if you had been one of the people standing over the mass graves that they discovered in Northern Iraq, if you had seen the bloodstained walls of the torture chambers and read some of the accounts of homes being searched and fathers and brothers being carried off into the night, never to be seen again. I have not but my (ex)next door neighbours son did and he said that he thought the war was wrong when he first went out to Iraq and especially after he saw a good friend die in front of him but when he saw the atrocities that had been perpetrated he thought that he was at least doing something to try and stop this carrying on.

No war is right in my eyes - but what SH was doing went beyond a war and more people had died under his regeme than those who actually died in the recent war.

I am proud to be English (with dodgy mixed heritage) and feel sad that I cannot express my views without being classed as racist or a bigot!!

I feel that a lot of the views here are very pertinent but people could be placated if asylum seekers would claim asylum in the first friendly country that they come to. And I agree with the person who said that detention centres are a good idea - being in a centre would not be so bad - there would be no threat of torture or death and you would be fed, clothed, kept warm and your ailments treated. The worry of the asylum seekers going on the run and being lost would also be stopped.

I do not and have never begrudged anyone anything if they are at least doing something to help themselves - and I would like to say thanks to everyone as I feel that I am a more sensitive, educated person with far more liberal views than I had before (due to my background and upbringing)althouigh I am sure a few of you would dispute this.

I do live in a very 'white' part of the country but would not feel agreived if that changed at all and think it would be good for the community.

Do you not find it a tad hypocritical when the media go into SH's palaces and compare them with the shacks the ordinary Iraqi's have to live in? 'Scuse me but has anyone seen the inside of the White House and compared that with some of the slums in Brooklyn? Or the Hollywood stars and footballers that get paid squillions whilst others struggle to survive on sink estates? How hypocritical of us to attack SH when we are guilty of doing the same in this country. We may not be digging up mass graves in this country, but both Britain and the US have committed crimes against human rights themselves.

Oliveoil - I used to live in Oldham and know exactly what you mean! People can say I am racist for what I am about to say, but I don't care! Up here we get streets that are taken over by Muslims (usually the ones nearest to the Mosque). The houses on these streets are never looked after, they are litter-strewn and you will often come across chicken heads and legs in the street. If you smile at them, the majority will scowl at you. The older ones do not (or will not) speak a word of English. The local newsagents will be taken over by an Asian family and before you know it, the whole area has become an Asian one, and house prices fall dramatically. Compare that with the Hindi's who have a temple near us, the temple is used for the benefit of the whole community. They are very nice and always acknowledge you as you walk past, they do their best to integrate into society. Now I know this is a bit of a stereotype, and I do know at least one Muslim who does not fit that stereotype. It is unfortunate however that I also know many more who do. This is the real problem. If foreigners of any race are not willing to integrate, that breeds suspicion and hostility.

Yes the white youths are just as bad at not accepting people. But I think events are often misinterpreted as racist when they are not. White youths will often beat up other white youths just as much as black youths. And if they call a black youth a 'nigger' or a 'paki' it shouldn't be jumped upon as evidence of a racial attack, after all when did you last see a ginger-haired person take someone to court for calling him a 'ginner' or 'carrot-head'? We are too quick to over-react and now I feel the country has gone pc mad, which is just frustrating and annoying.

And just in case anyone does accuse me of being a racist, I have a brother who is half African and a brother who is half Asian (both adopted), oh and a nephew with ginger hair!

Yes the white youths are just as bad at not accepting people - are you one of these white youths - Your post comes across as racist to the extreme to me!!!

I do think also that the sheer volume of human rights violations in Iraq were just too much to ignore - what an earth is happening in the UK which comes close just a little to the mass graves they have found in Iraq???

As for the palace thing - it is quite normal - look at Italy under Mussolini, USSR under Stalin and Lenin and Czechoslovakia under Chaushecu - they all had wonderful opulent homes and state buildings - I am not talking about the basic standard of living here but the henious crimes of torture, violence, threatening behaviour and death!!!

So having an opinion is racist? Have you never lumped together men and made jokes about them? Does that make you sexist? I do not joke about ethnic minorities, I offer an opinion, which I am entitled to do as I live amongst them for the most part, in perfect harmony. But if I show an understanding for the divisions that exist in this country, that does not make me racist. As I have said, it is pc gone mad. We cannot say anything now without it being taken the wrong way, and the racist accusation just gets thrown about willy nilly. Well I am fed up of walking on eggshells and creeping around the issue. There is a real problem in this country, and condemning everyone as a racist will not help to solve it.

I have come across real racism with my 2 brothers, and unless you have experienced that you really don't know what you are talking about.

Oh and as for your last points, see Northern Ireland.

Well to give a different experience, I live in an area where Muslims constitute the single largest ethnic group (i.e. white people are in the minority) and without wishing to sound patronising, they are in the main great neighbours. We are out in the local park most evenings and the locals are always v friendly to our 2 children and involve them in games of football and so on. Our area is also a comparatively safe one (despite the overwhelming poverty) and the local Asian shopkeepers are great - we are forever having to protest at our drycleaner / newsagent etc bestowing presents on our 2 not to mention presents of cash when they were born.

Where we live has always been a melting pot and also a place where since the Huguenots, immigrants have settled in waves before moving on to other parts of the country. This is just a continuation of that.

There see, everyone's experiences are different. Around here the local Mosque is situation in a very seedy area next to Brothels and drug dens, I often see Muslim men going in and out. I would love to have a peek, but no-one has invited me and my 'hello's' go unanswered. Whereas I've been in the Hindu Temple loads of times, they open it up for use of the whole community, they have open days where they make curries and show us how to wear sari's. It is such a difference. Perhaps if the Muslims were more open about their religion, and more welcoming to non-Muslims, they would integrate themselves better into the local community.

I am sure there is a programme on tonight on bbc1 around 10.30 about this.
I will be watching it and I hope it gives me more information.

It's called Welcome to Britain and is on at 10.35 BBC1 - think it starts tomorrow.

No - starts tonight.

I watched it last night. It was about the under 18's who come here and seek asylum. Very good programme and sorry but it only reaffirmed my views.Anyone else see it?

I am sure HRV's happen still in Northern Ireland but am sure they are not to the extent of those that have taken place in Iraq.

I really think your views only reaffirm what a lot of racists and bigots think and I am sure that a lot of Muslims are not like the ones that you have encountered.

I have encountered racism - both from whites (I look very foreign in the summer) and from Afro Carribeans when I lived in Leeds - I actually countered it just by saying that I had no preconceptions of the way the person in question lived or looked or spoke and had not even taken their colour into account to formulate any view I had of them - I told them that what they were sayinog to me equated to racism and that they should be embarrassed as they would be the first to stand up and shout if they were spoken to in the same way - I later received a very humble apology and a bunch of flowers!! They told me that I had opened their eyes to the hypocrisy that exists within their own community!!

Alright then, all Catholics are hypocritical mini-theologians who spend half their lives regretting all the great sex they missed out on. Their houses are full of religious trinkets and they have the arrogant air of know-it-alls. Now I'm a Catholic myself, although I'm pleased to say that I am an exception to that particular stereotype, though I do unfortunately know a lot of Catholics who fit it precisely. This is where stereotyping comes from.

I am fed up of the word 'racism' being thrown around at anyone who dares to speak their mind. Yes Boe, I did say that I do know a Muslim who does not fit my generalised stereotype, which is only a snapshot of where I live by the way. Funny how no-one criticised my portrayal of Hindu's as that is just as much a stereotype, I'm sure there are arrogant Hindu's around too.

What really is racism? My dictionary says it is a theory that human abilities are determined by race. I believe that all human beings were made in the likeness of God and that we are therefore, all equal. But yes there are groups of society that can be stereotyped, such as soccer hooligans, students, mothers and so on. We all need to identify ourselves with groups, rather like pack animals, and as such we adopt the behaviour of that particular group which leads to the birth of stereotyping. It isn't always true and most of it is used to criticise. But can you not see that I deliberately said that about the Muslims to highlight how ignorantly the word 'racism' is used? You may not agree with a persons view or opinion, but to label them a racist is not on. As I mentioned before, I have two coloured brothers, I am about as far from being a racist as you can possibly get. I marched against the Iraqi war, I marched against the BNP. Yet I am still entitled to say that in my area at least, the Muslims do need to do more to integrate themselves into society. They cannot simply sit back and accuse us of being racists when they have done nothing to help themselves.

I understand why people do not want asylum seekers living next door to them, I understand the fear and ignorance. Many of the asylum seekers are young men, if the young men where white there would still be an outcry at housing them all in one place. We all have to do our bit to tackle real racism, that means opening our eyes and listening to peoples views, not dismissing them all as racists.

Have to stick up for Rhubarb here. Describing a group of people with reference to their race/colour is not racism. Making assumptions about others based on their race/colour is, but I think Rhubarb was very careful not to do that. I live in the same area as bells, and have experienced much of the same friendly attitudes from the mainly Muslim local community. However I have also experienced harrasment from gangs of Bengali youths who hang around the riverfront. Pointing out that these kids are Bengali doesn't mean I am racist. It doesn't mean I think that only Bengali youths cause trouble. But it is relevantto note their race so that the police can work with the relevant community to try to discourage their behaviour.
(I saw a great example recently where the police turned up with a little old (Bengali) lady in tow to disband a group who were clambering over a bridge - one tirade from her later they all slunk off)

Fair point about the gangs Prufrock. We have certainly had our share of exposure to these and they can be very threatening. There doesn't seem to be any gangs of white youths around which I guess mainly reflects the demographics of the area. Because of this, I think it's hard to compare the behaviour of two groups of socially disadvantaged / disaffected youths i.e., I wonder whether a preponderance of bored white youths would be any different.

BTW, I am getting increasingly bemused at the numbers of smart looking twenty somethings wearing Hackett emblazoned rugby shirts and similar marching purposefully past our front garden. I feel almost indignant that these sorts of people are moving in and lowering the tone!!.