Anyone live in the Glasgow, Loch Lomond area or know anything about it?

[arabella2]

I ask because dh and I have seen a property for sale up there (14 miles outside Glasgow in the country). We currently live in London which suits us very well because we are a mixed race couple - dh is Indian and I am white...
We would like to move somewhere more peaceful but are a little anxious about the potential racism we might encounter. Does anyone know of the reactions to outsiders up where we are thinking of going?

Hi Arabella - I live in Central Scotland and have done all my life. Although I have never lived in the Glasgow area.... I am about 25 miles East.

I can tell you now that the worst racism is in the bad areas of the Glasgow suburbs.

I have NEVER seen an example of it outwith the City Centre. I would expect that it is much less an issue here than in London. You will be very welcome here..... and I am sure I speak for most of us Scots. As long as you can hold your alcohol.

Loch Lomond is beautiful and we used to go swimming there every summer when we were kids. Fantastic! You gotta move there.

Obviously I can't speak for every individual, but I am extremely confident that if you didn't come up against any racism, it would be a VERY rare occurrance. From my experience it just doesn't seem that much of a big issue here.

Ooops - I meant if you DID come up against any racism.... I'm trying to type too fast.

I live in Pollokshields in Glasgow, which, although it is a very wealthy suburb has quite a high "middle class" Indian community and adjoins an area with a very large Indian community (more tenements than villas, but uupmarket ones). I've never encountered any racism - although there is some of the "unthinking" racism - for example, comments on how "Indian" Albert Drive is becoming - without recognising that it is the Indian community that is keeping the shopping area alive.

The Indian community is generally fairly well integrated in Glasgow - they will normally consider themsleves to be Scottish as well as Indian. (Having said that, I'm not denying what M2T has said - I come from a fairly sheltered background!).

Dh tells me that the Indian community is diferent to the one more generally found in England, ie they tend to come from a different bit of India - I always forget which bit. I thik it's that they're NOT (or they ARE?!) Bengali. It's evident in Indian food we get - pakora are the snacks, rather than bhajis/samosas.

Where are you looking at? Balfron, Killearn, Drymen, Strathblane are all good places (with good schooling) - although according to Billy Connolly (who used to live there), they can be a bit snooty in Drymen. I think it's like any village - if you get involved, you'll fit in. Most of these places are becoming commuter villages for Glasgow, so a lot of people are moving out there anyway.

The "racism" that is more prevalent in the West of Scoltand is the religious bigotry - catholic versus protestant. Again, given my relatively privileged background, I never really came across it, but it does exist.

I don't think you and dh being a mixed couple would be an issue. Being English may (but only may) be more of an issue - but again, it's a case of getting stuck in. The problems usually arise if there is a perceived arrogance. There are many English "adopted Scots". My own parents are South African adopted Scots.

For quality of life, you can't beat it. The area north of Glasgow is stunnigly beautiful (I drive out to Balfron every week for my Pilates class) and you have the facilities of Glasgow (good shops, nighlife, restaurants, culture) on your doorstep. (.... actaully, sore point there - I need to pay my council tax today, I help subsidise all those fantastic facilites for the commuters!)

If you've got any more questions, just ask - or ask Mumsnet to give me your e-mail details.

Got to agree with you Janz - the worst racism in Scotland is against the English, but usually only when the World Cup is on.

The there is the sectarian sh*t that goes on too.

Come to Scotland! YOU'LL LOVE IT!

I am Engish but have lived in Scotland (Glasgow)for the last 12 years . I agree with the earlier comments .
I would also add that the scots are a lot friendlier- although the weather is pretty crap and the winters seem really dark .
Compared to London the pace of life is a bit slower and feels a lot less populated ie: you can find open countyside / beaches (weather permitting) without seeing a soul.

Oh, I wish that was true, M2T, re anti-English sentiments being confined to World Cup. My ds's were called English bstrrds at school, even though the eldest had lived in Scotland since he was four and ds2 was born and brought up there!! And the articles/letters that occasionally surface in local papers appall me. I wish I could say that such feelings were confined to people who know no better and thus could be excused, but ime, anti-English feelings are rife even amongst well-educated and influencial member of society.

Seudonim - My fiance is English and has a very strong Scouse accent. I worry about going into pubs with him in case someone started something, but I can honestly say I have NEVER come up against this. There is banter, but never anything abusive or anything other than lighthearted. I'm not niave and I know it goes on and I think it's absolutley disgusting what was said to your children! I hope they were not too upset by it.

I s'pose I'm just pointing out that it doesn't have to be like that. I would have to say that it is a small minority of bigots that feel that way. Please please please don't be put off from coming to Scotland because of that Arabella.

DH best mate is Scotish and agree that it is all good hearted banter and nothing else.

I lived in the west end of Glasgow for 20 years until i got married and shipped off darn sarf.
I agree with others, there's a really big Asian community in Glasgow which is just another part of the city.
Biggest issue is definitely protestant/catholic sectarian differences, but only in the not so nice bits (every city's got them- shady areas that is).
Rural communities around Glasgow are the same as anywhere else in Britain. It might take a while to be accepted, but any outsider would be treated the same, regardless of ethnic origin.
Take any anti-English comments with a very large bucket of salt - we Scots are well-balanced people cos we've got a chip on both shoulders!
If you do move, i'll be v jealous - Loch Lomond is gorgeous and with a Jenners dept. store too now!

I don't think it is banter, though. People may dress it up with jokes/light heartedness but they are using that as a facade to say something unpleasant. Deep down, they do think these things, otherwise why say it in the first place if you don't mean it? I also get fed up of people slagging off the English and then turning to me and saying 'Not you, of course, you're okay.'

I've lived in Scotland since 1979 and I think it's a problem that is worsening. It depresses me because in all other respects (apart from the weather!!) Scotland is a great place to live and I like it very much.

I'd have to agree with suedonim, anti-english sentiment is ingrained, though mostly amongst the "uneducated" (sorry hate that term, but YKWIM). When we were looking for workmen for our new kitchen, whenever I phoned someone with my home counties accent, no-one was available, or they'd make an appointment to come round then not turn up. My dh also has an english accent, but can "do" a scottish one, as both of his parents are from Ayrshire, and when we realised what the problem was, he made all the calls, and had no difficulty.

Religious bigotry is also rife South and West of Glasgow. A Catholic girl I know has been shunned by many people she used to call friends because she married a protestant.

Having said all that, I like it here, the cost of living is cheaper than most parts of England. Glasgow is great for shopping and entertainment, the schools are mostly fine, healthcare is generally better funded than down south and the weather can be quite nice on occasion!

Thanks for all your different ideas. The area we were looking at is Dumbarton. It's actually a wood which is going to auction, on which there is planning permission to build 2 houses. One of the conditions of sale is that the wood is worked as now - trees planted, sold whatever... and that the housing be used for the people who are doing the work. We were only vaguely thinking about it as we have been "vaguely" thinking of moving for a long time now.
I know there are areas of London where racism is definitely prevalent, but in many places lots of different people seem to cohabit fairly peacefully and above all nobody turns any heads because everbody is so used to the diversity - that's what's nice about it. No double takes or "what did you say your surname was???".
I don't think this idea would work for us because as well as being away from a big town, there would also be the question of employing people to work in the wood. Maybe it's a pessimistic take on things. Above all it's the "taking a while to be accepted" part which I find difficult to accept myself - I think dh would find it difficult too. I know rural communities in England are the same and dh would reluctantly move to one of these so why then would we move to Scotland if the reactions would be the same as you say Bobsmum. The multi-cultural side of London is great - it's the lack of countryside and peace which I find difficult. There are nice parks (2 near us) but somehow this is not quite the same as hills or seaside. I suppose you cannot have everything.

Arrabella,
You should be alright in Dumbarton.
My mum was born in Balmaha and 3 of her sisters still live in the area as do their families(Balloch, Renton & Bonhill). Every time I visited
(every week when my brother and I were young) I was not aware of any racism. Every Sunday we would collect my uncle from the distillery in Dumbarton then go to my Aunts for Lunch (after feeding the ducks on the river of course). Oh happy days.

I must say I am slightly shocked by what appears to me as paranoia on the part of some people. I have many English friends and I can assure you that I'm not lying when I say that there is BANTER between us. So far in this thread I see Scotland described as a clicque, bigoted, sectarian, racist haven for the anti-english!!

I have never even seen an argument in the pub which started as or ended up as a racist slagging match or a Scottish/English battle!

I don't live in the sticks, I have lived in a few places in Central Scotland over the past few years. However, after 10 days staying in London I saw examples of racism, and hatred everyday!

Take what you want from that, but I seriously have NEVER heard of this extreme behaviour you are all describing.

Scotland is wonderful and beautiful, as are the people. When the Scots go abroad they are congratulated for getting on so well with people from that country and mixing so peacefully.

Please please please Arabella don't be put off of Scotland by what you read here. It is NOT representative of even a large minority.

Totally saddened by what I have read here.

M2T, it's not paranoia-it happens, and regularly! However, I was trying to agree with the point that there is unlikely to be any anti-Indian racism. The colour of your skin is far less important than which church you go to, at least around here!

The view from this end is slightly different, M2T. Maybe you think being abused with foul language for apparently being English on Princes St, Edin is banter. I don't. Sectarianism isn't something I've experienced personally but as Jack MacConnell has made eradicating it a target for his new govt, I guess it must exist or he wouldn't be bothering.

I wasn't denying the sectarian problem!!! I was acknowledging that. I KNOW there is.

I was merely pointing out that Scotland is not that horribly racist place it has been painting on this thread. It's sounds more racist than Central London! That's not right.

I'm sorry if I started a provocative thread. It really wasn't meant as such. I was more asking because Loch Lomond being away from the town made me wonder if people might be a little wary of strangers as they are also here in England outside big cities.
I haven't got the impression that Scotland is a racist terrible place from this thread. I've been to Edinburgh once and loved it. I think the countryside is beautiful and Alan Hansen wonderful ! I like the way people speak and also their directness.
The impression I have got from this thread is that the ideas you have about a place must be coloured by the people you meet, where you live etc... In any case, for historical reasons I think there is bound to be "friction" between the Scottish and the English which at times may be banter and at others maybe unpleasant.
In any case it would be nice to go to the Edinburgh festival again some time and also take the opportunity to do some travelling around.

Glad you loved Scotland Arabella - It's fantastic. The Fringe is great too! I love the atmoshpere in Edinburgh during it and even though we haven't been to any shows we just walk through the streets lapping it up.

If you get the chance you should drive right up the west coast to Oban and beyond. The scenery and beaches are breathtaking.

Arabella - I'm not sure many Scots would share your opinion of Alan Hansen! (He's now perceived as "adopted English"!).

Picking up about your point about whether Loch Lomond being rural and therefore more wary of strangers: as I mentioned, there are lots of people who now commute in to Glasgow from up to 30 miles north of Glasgow, so even though you are well into the countryside, it's not really isolated, so I don't think your particular concern would be an issue. I think it would also depend on which end of Loch Lomond you were talking about - it's a very long loch. Although you seem to be talking about the Dumbarton end, which, as I say, is increasingly becoming a commuitng distance, so there are lots of city folk there anyway.

I know you hadn't meant to make this a controversial thread: I think some of the "heat" is evidence of Scots both being passionate about and loving their country, but at the same time, being very open about its failings, such as its sectarianism. We always like to take people down a peg or two - including ourselves!

In my own case - I know the sectarianism is there, but personally, I've never come across it, except in the most light hearted of circumstances.

My Mum and Dad came to Scotland as South African immigrants (I was 3) and have only ever felt at home here. We emigrated when I was a teenager to NZ and came back because Mum & Dad were homesick for Scotland in a way that they never were for South Africa.

My experience of England compared to Scotland (although it was Bolton as opposed to London) is that Glasgow is much more culturally integrated than England. In Bolton the Indian community kept itself totally apart and there was a lot of antagonism: here it is not as isolated.

BTW - dh has informed me that the Asian community here is mostly Pakistani and Punjabi (I knew I always got it mixed up!).

Glasgow itself is supposed to be a "happening" city (I'm too old for all of that now), with a thriving night life, clubs etc. There are fantastic (free) museums, masses of parks and a good shopping centre (complete with a Versace and an Armani in the Italian Centre). We apparently spend siginificantly more than the average per capitia on clothes. Scottish Opera, Scottish Ballet and two symphony orchestras are based here. There are supposedly more cinema screens per head of population than anywhere else in the UK. The Victorians left us an incredible architectural heritage. We used to be the second city of the empire and that wealth is still evident in the buildings in the city centre.

Why don't you contact Scottish Enterpise Dunbartonshire to see if they can provide you with some more info.... especially since you would be employing people.

So nicely put Janz.

Very ture about the Scots being passionate and fiercely patriotic. That's why I was SO shocked by what I read here.

Arabella2 - just let me know when your removal van is passing my house and I'll jump in - honestly you won't even know i'm there. Just drop me off by the armadillo and the sec - I'll be no bother!

The only other misconstrued "banter" I ever came across was the Edinburgh vs Glasgow/east coast vs west coast thing. As the saying goes: you'll have more fun at a Glasgow funeral than an Edinburgh wedding...let battle recommence

Bobsmum - I'm rrrright in the middle of the 2, but work with people from Fife and Glasgow.... it's sooooo funny when they start on each other!

Are you a Scotsman or a Herald girl - that usually sorts em out!