Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Other subjects

What has happened to our ability to assess risk?

80 replies

flashingnose · 09/06/2005 20:44

There have been a few threads on here that have got me thinking about how I assess risk, especially in relation to my children. I always thought I was easy going but certainly not neglectful, but I'm wondering whether I'm being ridiculously lax in some of the things I do (or don't do).

How real a threat is child abduction? Is it any more prevalent than when I was a child in the Seventies?

There are many instances where I take my eyes off my 4 and 6 year olds (not the 2 year old, she's far too random ) - is this really not the done thing any more?

Should I actively discourage my kids from being friendly to people?

I'm asking this mainly because I had my kids abroad (where things are much more relaxed - sigh) so I want to get up to speed with how people are thinking here and crucially whether they can back up any fears with facts, and also just to see what everyone else thinks....

OP posts:
Prettybird · 10/06/2005 10:10

I'm determined to foster in ds the same sense of independence that I was given as a child. I feel very strongly that it is our perception of danger that has changed and not the reality. The only are where I would accept that there is an increased danger is from traffic - and ironically, part of that is because of people using cars on the school run becasue of thier fear of the traffic (and abductions etc) - so a vicious circle is created.

We are killing them gently with our "kindness" children need to be able to explore without adults in attendance all the time. They need to learn to cope in the wide world. We need to give them the skills to cope with the big wide world - and not shield them from it. Scary, yes. But that is one of our repsosbilities as parents.

I have seen stats (can't remember where, sorry) which say that one of the reasons for the jump in traffic accidents for 12 year olds is that they are duddenly allowed to start going to school on thier onw - without ever having been able to leart any traffic sense for themselves.

At 8, I was taking a train into Glasgow, walking up a narrow lane (in winter, in the dark) and going to a ballet class. I was "trained" to do so by my mother and I plan to do similar for ds when he gets to that age.

Already, at 4,5, we are teaching ds basic road safety, getting him to tell us if it is safe to cross. I have no intention of letting him go out on his own, yet, but by starting young, we can gradually build his skills - and also get a feel for oursleves as to when he has learnt to do things like judge car speed.

He starts school in August and I would hope that by Primary 3 we would be happy to let him go to school on his own. The only busy road has a Lollipop Man.

But it is also horses for courses: ds is a very level headed wee boy who actually does what he's told. He stands by the front gate (no actual gate there) and taklks acorss the street to the wee boy who lives across the road - but will wait for me to take him across the road.

But it's a bit chicken and egg. Is one of the reasons that he is (or appears to be) good independently already because we have allowed hom a degree of independence? We allow him to play in our (large) garden on his own - and, horror of horrors, can't always see him from the house. We do sometimes come unstuck - like the time that he and his wee frined had spent the time playing in his bedroom squritng out the contents of his paint bittle and then doing "Jackson Polloks" all around the room. Although they started on paper - it still got everywhere the rug, the bsthroom door and bathroom itelf (where they had tried to celan up), the soles of thier shoes.... - and took over an hour to clean up (and the rug will need to be replaced). But two chastened wee boys won't be doing that again!

And is it a concidence that the report we've jsut had from the nurdsery comments about how good he is at playing independently - but also how good he is at interacting with both the other children and with the adults, and that his happy confident nature ill set up up with a great foundation to go through life?

RedZuleika · 10/06/2005 10:15

Just read the thing about dog theft. I noticed when we got our dog that I was more inclined to let him off the lead (in a countryside area, no roads) than my husband - because I felt that if I didn't test him, I wouldn't know how much I could trust him to come back. (The only reason I've stopped doing this so much is because he's discovered his sex drive and - at six months pregnant - I can't run after him.) I'm also happy for certain friends / family to take him out as well. However, despite our neighbour repeatedly asking to take him for a walk (her little girl loves to play with him), there's no way in hell I'd let him out with her. They're not untrustworthy, but they're just not dog-people - and I don't think they realise what they're doing. They give him unsuitable toys and want to buy him human chocolate. They wouldn't have a clue what to do if he got into a fight. The child might want to hold the lead - and he's just not strong enough. And at the end of the day, the dog is part of our family - not a toy.

I'm sure this assessment of risk translates to children somehow...

tabitha · 10/06/2005 10:16

I agree totally Prettybird. It is hard to give them independence but it would in many ways be cruel not to.
My son has walked to school from his childminders since he was 6 (he's now 7) - fair enough it's only a few minutes walk away but he loves the independence. He has also now started walking back from football training and yes, my heart is in my mouth, until he's safely in the house but I know, for him, that it's the right thing to do.

aloha · 10/06/2005 10:17

Whåt she wrote may well be exaggerated, but the idea of sexually predatory men being behind every bush isn't that far from my and my friends childhood experience tbh! As I recall, we never even told our parents about being chased through the park by a man with his willy hanging out!

JoolsToo · 10/06/2005 10:17

I suppose its ironic that I would let my 8/9 year olds play out with friends in the evening at home but would baulk at letting them wander around a zoo for an hour unaccompanied.

Unfortunately I would very much discourage my children being friendly with strangers.

moo - I listened to that discussion on Jeremy Vine - ridiculous really, why not just ban cameras and have done with it!

assumedname · 10/06/2005 10:25

I roamed all over our neighbourhood with the local 'gang' in the school holidays and we never saw any paedophile behaviour.

I thought this was normal.

Prettybird · 10/06/2005 10:28

But doesn't the fact fact that you ran way from the those strange me mean that you had been taught the iife skills to know it was inappropriate?

It's the (difficult and delicate) issue of teaching the children aobut stranger danger - and people doing in apporpriate things - and also not teaching them to distrust all adults.

The stats show that abuse is more common in or close to the home (and sorry again - I can't quote them - but I do know form GP friends that that is their real life experience) - and children also need to be given the skills to know that even if it is not a stranger, some things are still inappropriate.

I remember at Uni there was a pervert known to flash at some of the students on one of the short cuts I used from my residence. I didn't stop using the short cut - and if I'd seen him (which I never did) I owuld have just laughed at him - as I know was the reaction form my freinds who did see him.

tabitha · 10/06/2005 10:29

The thing is that 'bad people' whether bullies, paedophiles or whatever are, sadly, always going to be around. Unless our children are never allowed out, even up into late teens/adulthood, they are going to potentially come across bad people/situations at some time. Surely it is better to give them the means to deal with these, by allowing them increasing independence, than to either just throw them in at the deep end when they reach the age of 12 or 16 or whatever or to make them into adults who are still to terrified to do anything.

aloha · 10/06/2005 10:32

I don't think I'd been taught anything. It was just bloody frightening! And I'm not sure it is an appropriate life experience for, say, a six year old. I don't think I benefitted from it, to be honest.

RedZuleika · 10/06/2005 10:38

From what I remember, the first time I (accidentally) saw my father's penis, it was fairly terrifying too...

tabitha · 10/06/2005 10:41

For what it's worth, I think allowing a child too much independence/freedom is as bad as allowing too little. It's trying to get the right balance.

Prettybird · 10/06/2005 10:42

At least ds won't have to worry about that being frightening - we wander round the house in the nuddy frequently in the morning sand when going for baths/showers. And ds still comes into bed with his for a snuggle - and dh and I don't wear pyjamas.

Prettybird · 10/06/2005 10:45

I agree Tabitha. It is a judgement call - and we all do our best for our children!

Whoever said parenting was easy?!

RedZuleika · 10/06/2005 11:23

Actually - returning to a dog theme for a moment...

Since I've had this particular hairy beast, I have been really surprised by the attitude of parents and children. More often than not, they will pull their children away, whether because they think dogs are unhygienic or because they're worried about biting, I don't know. (I should stress at this point that I have a terrier, not a Rottweiler or a pitbull) I've seen a child who, in my opinion, was old enough to know better, run away screaming 'don't eat me' when my dog was three months old and a tiny scrap of a thing. I appreciate that all dogs have the capacity to bite and that some dog owners are irresponsible - but surely it would be better to teach dog etiquette to children and familiarise them to a creature that they're going to see around everyday, than to let them live in fear...? The children who run away screaming are guaranteed to end up being chased - because that's what dogs are hard-wired to do - and therefore their fear is reinforced.

I was very impressed this week when a tiny wee girl passed me in the street with her mother, asked me if she could pat my dog before launching upon him - and questioned whether he bites.

zipzip · 10/06/2005 11:27

One thing that has just come to my mind -
We, on mumsnet are discussing this, and discussing it in a very caring, intelligent way.
We all have our ways of encouraging our children to be safe and independant. We are striving to find the right balance, just as we do with other parts of our children's lives, veggie v choccy treats, bedtimes, amount of TV watched, number of toys etc etc etc.

Unfortunately, imho, we do not represent the majority of parents. In my mind, I'm whizzing around the area where I live (and it's not a bad area) and I can count far too many parents, who if they had an inkling that it is generally acceptable to allow 5 6 7 8 year olds to wander wherever..... they would really over-abuse this. It's only because of what they think some neighbours would say that stops them from allowing little johnny to play wherever he wants till midnight - and some don't even worry about that.

zipzip · 10/06/2005 11:33

RedZuleika - I totally agree.
I have an 11 month dog and I was so utterly shocked when i started walking him to the school (not in the playground) at the amount of children that screamed, look terrified, ran the other way, clung onto their parents. To make matters worse, many parents actualy encouraged this, they would sharply pull their children away and give us such a wide berth.
It was unbelievable - i would watch all this and then, so as to check my sanity, look down at this monster that was so terrifying - a floppy eared, fluffy puppy sitting patiently at my feet...

MistressMary · 10/06/2005 11:41

Can I just say something?

I don't represent anybody but myself. Mumsnet is a place that parents write on, it doesn't make me any better because of the fact I write on here.
And all those people we see out and about that don't happen to use mumsnet or any other site for that fact may be good parents too.

And how do we know that they don't use mumsnet orthat they do, just because their little babs is doing something we wouldn't let ours do?

What I'm trying to say and not that brilliantly is that all parents have different ideas of risks and caring whether they use forums or not.

I'll climb back in my mumsnet box now.

tarantula · 10/06/2005 11:45

On the subject of dogs tho there are lots of people who are very scared of dogs in the same way that peope are scared of spiders etc. And lots of kids do do through a phase of being scared of dogs too which they then outgrow.

With regard to risk I have to say it s a difficult call and all parents will see different types of risk differently. We used to take my stepson on an extension bike on long trips round the countryside which many people thought was very risky. And yes it is a bit but we thought the benifits outweighed the risk. Dss learned to be road aware, got good exercise and visited many places he wouldnt have seen otherwise.

Its a balance of perception and judgement of the childs ability which is a very difficult judgement call indeed.

zipzip · 10/06/2005 11:58

MistressMary - I think you mis-understood me

I tried to be concise with my point and fear I may have been too concise and given you the wrong idea of what I was trying to say.

wordsmith · 10/06/2005 11:58

I find it hard to believe sometimes the level of freedom I and my siblings and friends had as children in the 1960's and 1970's. Our house was next to a wooded copse and backed onto a golf course and every evening after school and tea, we would get on our bikes and ride over the 13th hole and in the bunkers (much to the disgust of the 'parkie'), build dens in the copse and generally play till dusk without our parents having a clue where we were specifically (they knew we wouldn't have wandered far but that was it.) This would have been from about aged 8 or so. It was fantastic. I remember at age 11 getting a bus into Birmingham (15 miles away) with my friend, alone, her dad had given us some money to go and have a pizza and go shopping. It was such a big adventure! But again we never felt scared.

Doubt if I would give my DSs the same freedom so early but I would like to feel I could. DS1 will definitely be walking to school on his own long before he finishes primary, I just hope they build a crossing on the one busy road he has to cross by then.

I totally agree with whoever it was who said that by wrapping kids in cotton wool, driving them everywhere, not letting them play out etc, we deny them the opportunity to learn road-sense and other vital skills.

And yes, I think the fear or weirdos is vastly greater than the actual risk. It helps to avoid reading the tabloids for a start!

MistressMary · 10/06/2005 12:04

Miss understood rather than misstrees mary.

katierocket · 10/06/2005 12:12

very interesting debate. I too remember have lots of freedom (well relative to now) but I also feel that it is the media's increased reporting rather than an actual increase in child related crimes, that fuels our paranoia. I definitely think that children need to be 'taught' a lot of common sense and have to understand what to do in certain situations. I was talking to my DS (3.5) the other day about what to do if he ever gets lost. The standard advice is to ask for help from a) someone that works in a shop b) a policeman/woman or c) another mummy that has children with her. So he turned to me and said "or another daddy?" now obviously I guess another dad would be a good person to ask but I wouldn't want him asking another man who was on his own. But it's very hard to explain why to him without getting onto very difficult ground.
I suppose I'm saying that yes to freedom but so much of it has to be age appropriate.

Prettybird · 10/06/2005 16:50

I was thinking about this and about how we all have different assessments of risk.

I for one never had stair gates for ds, even though we live on the first and second floor of a large house, with our won entrance on the gound floor (ie two sets of stairs to worry about). We did however train ds to go up and down stairs safely almost as soon as he was crawling.

I'm sure though that there are other things that we do worry about and don't let him do, that other people are relaxed about.

suedonim · 10/06/2005 17:36

Like many people, I had much more freedom as a child than my own children. And my older two children had more freedom than my younger two. But unlike Aloha's experience, though I roamed around a lot, I was never 'flashed' at or saw any other disturbing event. My older sister was flashed at once, as a teenager, by the Town Flasher who was well known to everyone and was known to be 'simple'.

I think maybe the mobility of modern life has an effect on how safe or otherwise we feel. I was brought up in a small-ish town in Kent where people were known and a stranger would be noted. Now, the population is more transigent in its movements and it can be unsettling to our security, even though we know that most crimes against children are committed by people known to them.

I well recall the Moors Murders in '66 and they frightened the living daylights out of me - I had no idea grownups could behave so dreadfully until then.

Caligula · 10/06/2005 17:47

I think we also have to remember that in the seventies when I grew up, there were park-keepers in every park. My mum knew we were vaguely safe because there were 3 park-keepers in the park, who represented authority and social control. If someone was bullying us, vandalising the place, being scary, we would go and tell the parkie(s) and (t)he(y) would come and sort them out.

In the eighties, these people were judged to be a waste of rate-payers' money and were got rid of. Meaning that the local park was turned over to vandals, with no authority figure permanently on site with a sense of ownership and enough pride in their patch, to stop it. And my DB, who is 10 years younger than me, was not allowed to go to the park with his friends anymore, the way I had been allowed, because it was perceived as a less safe place. Whether it was actually just perception or reality, is moot, I guess.