other people's children misbehaving in shops

[tallulah]

Yesterday in the shoe shop, a family came in behind us, with 2 little boys, 5 & 2. Mother sat down & father went off to look at the shoes & the children started rampaging round the shop. They jumped on the electronic measurer, fiddled with the buttons.. mother remained on her chair, shouting "get off- don't do that!".

Father glanced their way a couple of times, saying ineffectually "boys, don't do that" (his tone suggested he didn't really care one way or the other) then carried on looking at the (children's) shoes.

The assistant fitting my DS went off to get another pair, and the youngest of these kids came over and was climbing on the fitting stool thing in front of us. My DS (11) was outraged & started moaning about how badly behaved they were.

Now my 4 were born within 5.5 years of each-other & the 3rd one has ADHD. They used to run off in shops etc & for that reason they were either on reins; taken out individually or whatever it took. This wasn't one poor woman on her own struggling with a brood of kids, but 2 adults and 2 children. They could easily have taken charge of one child each and prevented them from being such a pain. At no time did the mother get off her backside to sort them out- just kept shouting, which they ignored.

When I told my DH he surprised me, saying what could the woman do. Had she manhandled the children in any way there would have ben gasps & tuts from everyone else in the shop, so she couldn't win. While he has a point I still get fed up with parents who let their children behave like this. 2 year olds don't know any better, but can be controlled. 5 year olds should do.

What does everyone else think?

I agree with your dh on this one.

Me too. What harm did it really do? And maybe they were having an extremely bad day for some reason...

Tallulah, with respect, I also dislike badly behaved children but on the other hand I have a son who is 3 and I know he can be a handful to take out - so I feel from reading both your threads (eating in supermarket & this one) that some of the comments sounded a little judgmental in general toward other parents... a little bit holier-than-thou, as though all children should be as well behaved as yours. As much as it annoys me to see children running rings around their parents and being disobedient, there are always going to be parents around who let their children run wild - who don't discipline their children enough, don't teach them how to behave in public, or teach them to respect other people's property, etc etc. But what can we, as total strangers to these people, DO about it?? Not a great deal - it is their choice to let their children behave that way. I personally watch my son like a hawk whenever we are at someone's house so that he doesn't damage anything or touch anything that he's not supposed to. I also discourage any bad behaviour if we're out in public and if he persists in doing it, he is disciplined over it. But I know at times he has also been overtired or excited, which makes him a little harder to control. And perhaps this woman was very uncomfortable about disciplining her children in front of a bunch of strangers - I know I'm always well aware of other people being around when my son decides to misbehave in a shopping centre. Who knows, she might have told them off when they left the shops or once they got home. I just feel that it's easy to fall into the trap of judging other people when their behaviour doesn't match ours, but I don't think it's fair because everyone is different and we don't know their true circumstances.

IME shoe shops and shoe shopping brings out the worst in many children. Shoe shopping can be a very long and drawn out chore, especially if your child's feet aren't average. It might have been the umpteenth shoe shop the family had visited as well, so that might explain why the children were so fed up and the parents were so weary.

Personally I think you have to be very tolerant here. I can't believe that any family likes to spend time in shoe shops by choice. It's hell

If the family you describe had been in an indoor playground, say, and had pestered you then I think you would have more reason to feel miffed at the lack of parental control.

But I can see you were annoyed and I think you could have said something to the child who climbed on your son's footstool. To be honest, if my sons go a wild in a shoe shop and I don't/can't stop their antics, I'd much rather another parent said something direct like 'can you get off that footstool boys' if they were getting in their way. It is much better than keeping silent and giving 'looks' - not that I think you were doing this tallulah. I'm just saying that IME it is so easy to sense when someone is silently bristling with indignation and disapproval. All that does is make two people upset, me and the parent, and it doesn't make any difference to the child's behaviour either.

Tallulah we all have children and we all have bad days. I agree with your dh they were in a no win situation. If they chastised their children somebody could of called the police as that is classed as child abuse. I expect my children to behave when out shopping/peoples homes etc mentioned by others but if they are not I will deal with them when I get home.
If I see someones child having a tantrum or messing about I try to make a humorous comment like YOU CANT TAKE THEM NOWHERE CAN YA MINE ARE THE SAME to relieve a bit of the pressure on the parent as it happens to us all.

Can I ask you has any of your children misbehaved shopping etc and what have you done about it?

I can understand your point, but what really annoys me is when, my own boys are behaving well and they see other children doing naughty things, which they then try to copy.
This afternoon we went out for Sunday lunch. Our boys(4.5yo), were sitting down, eating very well, some people on the next table were allowing their children to get up and jump about on some steps, then go back and eat some more food.The children were between 7 and 9 or 10, old enough to be able to sit at a table.Two waitresses had to ask them to move as they were getting in the way, the parents said nothing !!!!
One of my sons then tried to get down from the table to do the same.

She might be pregnant and very tired. She might be a lazy mum who never disciplines her children. She might be depressed.She might have been right on the edge & if she's don't something, gone right off into on, so thought better to just sit there and try & calm down. I mean, who knows???? It can irritate me too when kids are badly behaved, but there are just a million and one things we don't know about the situation, and I'm sure I've been on the receiving end of other people's judgements & comments. My kids are generally very good, but have had some blinding moments, especially in shops.

Plus, it's miles more difficult to discipline your kids in public with everybody watching, you just can't judge.

As a mother of a 2.5 year old who is big enough to be in clothes for 4-5 year olds I would just like to point out that sometimes children aren't the ages that one assumes. When my toddler was going through a particularly tantrum ridden phase I would end up walking home from shops almost in tears (vowing never to take hime again... but how will he ever learn and how will my life function if I don't?)The attitude of other people as I've tried to deal with his behaviour has been frankly insulting. Only once has any one ever said anything encouraging and full of empathy. One can't win. If one ignores it, or tries distracting tactics there is always someone to point out how 'that child needs disciplining' and if one tries to man handle him out of the shop or tell him off there are always people glaring in that way that says 'what a horrible mother... leave that poor child alone'. My daughter was never like this and a lifetime ago (she is now a teenager) I probably was one of those parents who looked on accusingly. Maybe thats why my son is such a character, he was brought to me to teach me something about tolerence!!

You can chastise your child without it being child abuse! That's a bit OTT isn't it Doormat?

It's easy to take your child firmly by the hand and make them sit down whilst you explain appropriate behaviour to them. If my child(ren) misbehave whilst out, I deal with it then and there - they need to make the connection between the behaviour and the telling off. This generally involves being strapped back in the pushchair in the case of DS2 (2) and some form of threat for DS1 (eg not getting a promised treat). If it gets very bad, we abandon the trip/wind it up quickly and go home.

I fully accept that you never know if the other person's child had behavioural problems and I try to take that into account now when tutting at behaviour. Ditto for bad days but there is a limit.

Yes you are right soupdragon maybe OTT I agree. But the parents were telling them to stop it and to behave and sit down. What more could they do?

I must admit 90% of the time my DS is very good in shops, the other 10% of the time he can be a total pain, but thats kids. I agree with who ever said shoe shops bring out the worst in them. I am sure people probably look at me and think I am a bad mum on one of those days, I thought all mums had them.

after moving from london and having my son i had 1 friend wich i only saw once a week i was suffering from bad pnd and seeing her was a great help we just sat down for coffee when my ds then 1 1/2 had a tamtrum hed only been screaming for a couple of minutes and everyone could see i was doing my best to calm him down,a woman came and said he needed a good slap so i offered her one instead,she soon shut up and left and everyone else stopped looking at me,what im trying to say is that we don`t know the circumstances in my case i could have taken him out of the cafe but like i said i was desperate to have a chat with a friend, no one with children should ever judge other parents in cases like these

Before I had children, I must confess I was quite often appalled by the way some children behaved when out, however, I now realise that children sometimes are badly behaved for whatever reason and however hard you try to stop them at times it's like banging your head against a brick wall. Sometimes ds (4) can be so well behaved, at others he has mega tantrums in public and I don't thank people for the disapproving stares or comments. I sometimes think you're in a no-win situation, as however you handle it, there will always be someone who doesn't approve, so I handle it my own way, and ignore anyone else.

When my ds was about 2 1/2 I took him to a shoe shop to get some new shoes. His behaviour was absolutely terrible. He had been fine before we went into the shop but completely changed when we went in. I was so annoyed at him so I can't really talk about other parent's children. I ended up that day not even getting shoes. I just took him straight out of the shop and went home. I couldn't be bothered with the hassle of it. It isn't easy being a parents sometimes.

I know it's usually good idea to threaten to leave a place if your child misbehaves in public, but if your child needs shoes, you just have to stay in that shop. Your child probably hates the shop anyway, so you can't make leaving it a punishment. If your child cotton ons to the fact that mummy is trapped, it's another incentive to throw a wobbly.

Mine can be such scoundrels in shoe shops, fiddling with everything (well not the oldest, he is OK now at long last). It's horrible hearing my own voice droning on and on in public yet seeing my sons totally ignoring me. It makes me feel so tense, especially when I see other children. I do bribe them, but if you promise sweets or a toy in public, someone will still frown at you. I try to practice damage limitation - go when it's quiet if possible and I'm not too fussy about the shoe style, as long as they fit. Speed is of the essence. Winnie,
you make a great point about the age of the child. Some 2 year olds look a lot older. I am sorry you have found such negativity in people who presumably mistake your son for a 4 or 5 year old. I know of one boy, ( a neighbour's son) large for his age, who used to throw the most mega public trantrums but grew up to be an extremely polite 12 year old. He has better manners than most adults I know.

Doormat, obviously I wasn't there but if it were my children, I would have got up, walked over to my child and made them sit down quietly and stop annoying other customers/staff or playing with the fitting machine. From what Tallulah says, the mother didn't move from her seat and the father simpy said "don't do that" half heartedly.

I'm not some harsh diciplinarian (or whatever) but if my DSs were to behave like that, after a couple of attempts to stop them they would have been forced to sit quietly/been strapped back in the buggy and had a "stern talking to".

What seems to have annoyed Tallulah is the pathetic attempts to restrain their children. As others have said, maybe the parents had had enough for one day, but then maybe they were just ineffective disciplinarians! I TRY to only tell ds off if he is behaving 'badly' rather than just being high spirited, but sometimes it feels like all I am doing is saying 'Ds, stop it' and sounding like a cracked record...

The joys of parenthood!

Soupdragon,I have obviously offended you in some way and if I have I apologise. I am like yourself I would go over and grab my children by the hand and sit them down. I am strict with my children. The point on my previous posting was that we all have BAD days. Maybe this couple were having one of them.We do not know the circumstances.We as parents should not be so quick to judge other people as parents and the way they discipline their children.(unless it was beating them etc before I upset someone else unintentionally)

Chastising is my term for smacking I was just brought up using that word and it has stuck.

Noooo, not at all, Doormat! I simply don't understand why the parents would not have made more of an effort to control their children. Even on a bad day (and I have many) I would never let my DSs run riot round a shop.

Soupdragon

I think I'll just give up on the contentious issues & stick to something safe.

My kids were far from angels & the 3rd one was hell on earth but I would not let them misbehave like this. We also had the problem of more kids than adults plus a really small gap. People found it OK to criticize me, so I suppose I'm returning the compliment?

Winnie- I know the older one was 5 because his mother said so!! I can't judge ages because mine have always been small for their age.

doormat- I gave up taking mine shopping altogether because DH worked long hours & I couldn't cope with them on my own. I have been known to walk out of a shoe shop with a grizzling tantrum-throwing child & just not bother. Shoe buying for 4 always took at least an hour, especially since they are all a H fitting.

If you know they are going to be such a pain- don't go Saturday?!

I'm kind of with you on this tallulah! Shoe shopping for my autistic 4 year old (ds1) has always been a nightmare. My "rules" for a successful shop are

1. ring the shop in advance and warn them and ask them when they are likely to be quiet. 2)Make sure there is one adult to deal with ds1. This means either leaving ds2 somewhere or going with another adult.

A couple of weeks ago both boys needed new shoes. I took ds2 in the morning when ds1 was at nursery. Checked with the shoe shop when they would be quiet (after 5pm) and went back with ds1 at 5pm while my mum babysat ds2. And it was highly successful. New shoes all round and no-one got kicked, there was no screaming. OK a big faff- but that's the only way I can do shoe shopping.

Likewise I can't go to Sainsburys with ds1 and ds2 as they don't have enough double trolleys and I can't trust ds2 to walk beside ours. So if I have the two of them we drive to Tesco.

Shoe shopping behavious - now there's a subject I'll steer clear of for now! But Tallulah - I'm really interested to hear that your 4 are all an H fitting. My DS is a G/H - and speaking to other mums, and hearing the requests in shoe shops, this seems pretty common.

BUT from the reactions from shoe shop staff and the (lack of) availability of wider fittings (I think Clarks, for instance only go up to F) you'd think it was as rare as hen's teeth. What is the matter with the shoe manufacturers? It isn't THAT uncommon, is it?

Somehow, DH can manage 3 kids in the supermarket by himself with no fuss(also no eating of unpaid for goods), but if we are together we prefere the "supermarket sweep" approch. I leave DH in the car with the kids,I wizz around only buying things on the list, and cashouts permitting, am out in double quick time.
When shopping at Lidol, where they are very quick on the tills, I've been known to be in and out in under 15 minutes.

griffy- we queued at the Clarks Village last summer behind stacks of other families all wanting H fitting. What we ended up doing was finding out when the next delivery was due, ringing on the day to check they had them, belting back up there early & going straight to the staff to ask for them from the storeroom. (That was the quickest shoe-buy ever).

As there seems to be a huge demand for H fittings, why don't they supply them? If only they had average feet...