other people's children misbehaving in shops

[tallulah]

Yesterday in the shoe shop, a family came in behind us, with 2 little boys, 5 & 2. Mother sat down & father went off to look at the shoes & the children started rampaging round the shop. They jumped on the electronic measurer, fiddled with the buttons.. mother remained on her chair, shouting "get off- don't do that!".

Father glanced their way a couple of times, saying ineffectually "boys, don't do that" (his tone suggested he didn't really care one way or the other) then carried on looking at the (children's) shoes.

The assistant fitting my DS went off to get another pair, and the youngest of these kids came over and was climbing on the fitting stool thing in front of us. My DS (11) was outraged & started moaning about how badly behaved they were.

Now my 4 were born within 5.5 years of each-other & the 3rd one has ADHD. They used to run off in shops etc & for that reason they were either on reins; taken out individually or whatever it took. This wasn't one poor woman on her own struggling with a brood of kids, but 2 adults and 2 children. They could easily have taken charge of one child each and prevented them from being such a pain. At no time did the mother get off her backside to sort them out- just kept shouting, which they ignored.

When I told my DH he surprised me, saying what could the woman do. Had she manhandled the children in any way there would have ben gasps & tuts from everyone else in the shop, so she couldn't win. While he has a point I still get fed up with parents who let their children behave like this. 2 year olds don't know any better, but can be controlled. 5 year olds should do.

What does everyone else think?

Interestingly, there was an item on the local news about just this today. It was the mother of an autistic child asking that people shouldn't be so judgemental.

My ds has been a little brat in a shop this afternoon - I don't understand why he is behaving this way, and I'm finding his behaviour very difficult to cope with. And it does seem however you do handle things someone will disapprove.

Tallulah - yes, why don't they supply them? If they're selling out like hotcakes, so that people have to run to the shops the minute a consignment comes in, you'd think they'd get the message!

Excellent anais- it is autism awareness week this week. Glad it's getting some coverage. I've already had my say about being judgemental about odd behaviour on another thread.

And yep we're H/G fitting as well (both boys).

I'm with you on this one tallulah, soupdragon et al. My 2 year old will be strapped into a buggy if he doesn't behave. By the time they get to five they've by and large learnt how to behave. They may be devils at home, but when we're out they do what they're told, providing I am clear enough about what is expected of them.

My DS is ALWAYS an angel when shopping so I can't comment on that
In NZ they don't have widths in shoes for children (DS was an H fitting in England) so he now doesn't have any shoes ... like most kiwi kids

I think judetheobscure has hit the nail on the head, in saying they need to know whats expected of then(older ones of course).
When I was a child, before entering somewhere,eg,a shop, someones house, etc my Dad would take me aside and explain, clearly and in a very firm voice, how I was expected to behave.I think if you wait till they are actually inside, they get excited, distracted, and will not listen properly.
I've tried this with my boys(4.5yo)and it seems to work, when they do look like they might misbehave, all they need is a gentle reminder of,"What did Mummy tell you".
Perhaps we asume too much, and perhaps even quite alot older children should be constantly reminded.

Having had the chance to observe families in Asia, it's noticeable that small children rarely, if ever, behave in such a manner as Tallulah mentions. From what I've been able to glean, it seems to be because raising children is seen as a communal task and not something that parents do in isolation, which I think is how we have to do it in the UK. Everyone takes an interest in children as part and parcel of daily life.

If, say, the parents are busy in a shop, then an assistant or a even passerby in the general vicinity takes an interest and will amuse children. Coming from 'stranger-danger' UK I found it un-nerving at first to have people, especially men, approach my child but now we are used to it, it's rather nice. Adults are very friendly and inquisitive. They love to chat and so do children, who take a lot of interest in each other. They think nothing of coming up and starting a conversation with another child!

As for the Balinese - to be a Balinese child must be paradise on earth!

Well, talking of abroad - not shopping, but we watched the massive Easter Sunday parade in the town where we stayed in Spain.

Some of the dressed-up participants (floor-length purple/black/green velvet, white gloves, white cloak and a mantilla for the girls) were no more than 2 and yet they behaved perfectly - stood still, started and stopped when everybody else did, no whingeing or crying, and the whole shebang went on for a couple of hours...obviously they will have attended church every Sunday from the day they were born so presumably they assimilate what's expected of them before they can understand what's going on but anyway I was very impressed!

Tallulah et co. I think the problem with the British is that they are still into 'children should be seen and not heard'.

Don't you have days when you have dragged your bored children around the shops, and you really don't want to to tell them off. I mean does it really matter if they are running around a shoe shop. There is nothing breakable, they aren't hurting anyone. They are full of energy and life our little ones, be pleased. There's time enough for them to sit still and be 'proper'.

suedonim. I'm half Thai and my family is very much involved with the upbringing of my DD. Last week I had a parents evening at DD's nursery and they told me that DD was the only child who would go up and talk to other teachers and parents. Taking DD to school an average of 7 people each way will say hello to DD by name and I have no idea who they are. DD is lively when we go out shopping an stuff but it is simply because she wants to talk to people.

My DH is American and is horrified at how much my family is involved (though doesn't complain too much when we get a whole night to ourselves ). I have tried to explain that his prejudice is cultural, and that in most non western cultures there is a 'whole village to raise a child' attitude. When we go out with DD, you can see the veins in DH's head throbbing when she goes over to talk to someone, or does anything that involves not sitting still and being quiet.

I don't let my DD become destructive in shops, or run around by the road. If I ask her or warn her to stop and she doesn't listen then she goes back in the pushchair or we leave. But if she is simply being a playful little 4 year old I would rather she enjoy her childhood whilst she can.

Pie, what a fantastic phrase - "a 'whole village to raise a child' attitude"!! That sums it up exactly, it really does. When I think about it, it's how it should be. Children are everyone's future, even if you don't have any of your own.

Sorry lil, I disagree with you here. The last thing I want when I've got shoes to buy is other people's children rounding round, getting in the way, distracting my children. It takes long enough finding shoes that fit as it is.

I think the point about the children that Tallulah described is that they weren't simply being lively, they were doing things they shouldn't - eg playing with the fitting machine. IMHO, that crosses the line where a parent should step in. In our local store, these machines have signs on them asking you not to play with them.

What you need is a Hannibal Lechter like case with just the feet free for shoe measuring.

have to respectfully disagree old dragon - that assumes every ones children wear shoes. still such a contraption would come in handy

Suedonim, Pie and Lil, I agree. We really have such a negative attitude to children in this country when you think of it. We think of ourselves as child-friendly but I think we are just the opposite. Very sad.

Jac34 (no offence intended - I know we have disagreed about discipline issues in the past ) my concern would be that by 'reminding' your children how to behave all the time you are undermining their own self control, and giving them the message that you don't trust them. Just my thoughts.

anais - I'm sure the age of the children makes a difference. Mine (ages 7 down to 1) are reminded how to behave and then are praised for getting it right. Surely that's better than expecting them to understand what's acceptable and what's not and then getting cross with them if they don't behave appropriately? The 7 year old doesn't need a lot of reminding now anyway and behaves in a way that I consider acceptable and not upsetting or annoying to other people on the whole.

I think I agree with Tallulah with the circumstances she describes. However I know a shoe shop can be hell if you go at any remotely busy time. Having spent 45 mins waiting our turn and occupying DS by pointing out Bob TB ruck sacks etc I go for the quiet time approach and find that 9am sharp on a Saturday morning works really well.