Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Other subjects
Original poster

Brownies and Christianity

36 replies

Aniles · 08/04/2003 21:53

Hi all

Well, 'that' site is down again so, here goes, my first 'proper' post on mumsnet )

My daughter (7) has been a member of the Brownie Guides for a few months and really enjoys it. We are not Christians and I didn't think that she needed to be in order to join. However, a couple of Sunday's ago there was a Brownie parade held at the local church to celebrate Mothering Sunday. Dd simply went along because she didn't want to miss out. I was told that the Brownies would simply sit through a service but I later found out that each girl had been blessed by the priest. Dd didn't have any idea what was going on and I don't think she should have been expected to take part without first explaining to her what was going to happen and why, so that she could make a decision as to whether she wanted to be blessed.

At Brownies today the leader said that she was very dissapointed that some girls didn't attend the church service and that since they had all made a promise to love God she 'expects' all Brownies to attend church. She then gave each girl who did attend a big chocolate Easter egg to say thank you.

I saw this as a big slap in the face to those who didn't attend (a big chocolate anything is a pretty big deal to many 7 year olds lol). After all, if it was just a nice treat then all the girls would've received one, and if it was simply a thank you gesture then it would've been given out after the church service, not in front of the other girls who were obviously very disappointed.

Now, apart from the bribary aspect, the general message I got from this is that if the Brownies are not church-going Christians than they will be excluded from treats.

I thought that the wording of the Brownie promise was chaged to 'My God' in order to take into account all different religions and beliefs. Why, then, are they expected to attend a Christian church?

Can you please give me your opinions on this?

Thanks

An

OP posts:
zebra · 08/04/2003 22:35

I have friends who run Brownies or Guides, and they definitely wouldn't do this, Aniles.
Sounds really poor.

Ghosty · 09/04/2003 04:18

Aniles... this sounds bad ... I don't have any experience of this as I only have a DS and he is only 3 BUT I wouldn't like it AT ALL if it is indeed as you say.
When my sister was a guide (way back in the 70s) it was 'God' as in the Christian one but things have changed now haven't they? I would look into it if I were you and definitely speak to the leader about your daughter being blessed by the priest ... AND about the easter eggs ... NOT FAIR!!!
Hope you get some answers ....

cathncait · 09/04/2003 05:59

I agree with the others here. Thats terrible! You should really speak to the leader or the association about this - there should be no pressure for anyone to attend a church anytime. I am a Christian myself nut think this is very unfair - especially the biased treats. I'm sure that all Brownie arn't like this. Even when I was going 20 odd years ago there was very little mention of God let alone all the other stuff - I think we maybe said a prayer and thats about it.

robinw · 09/04/2003 07:11

message withdrawn

Crunchie · 09/04/2003 09:29

Back in the depths of my memory I remember going to church with the brownies, it was part of it. However being jewish I never felt comfortable, and would never have 'allowed' the priest to do a personal blessing. I think the leader was really 'off' when she 'expects' all brownies to attend church as they promise to love God. To me that is racism.

The bribery aspect is really bad as well. Some of the girls who didn't attend may not have been able to do so because of prior commitments, or family. So it wasn't their fault, but they still lose out. My girls are 4 and 2 and this hasn't come up, when it comes time to join (if they want) then you have made me think whether I would feel comfortable about this. I have no problem them going to church, but I do have a problem of being 'forced' to go via bribery.

Jimjams · 09/04/2003 09:35

Totally out of order. I wouldn't worry too much about the blessing- that probably just kind of happened, but the easter eggs!!! Not on at all.

Brownies does have a christan tradition, but I think that is more as a result of the time at which it was set up- when everyone went to church, rather than anything else.

Rhubarb · 09/04/2003 09:47

It is disgusting that the Brownie leader should do that with the Easter eggs, I would be tempted to have a quiet word in her ear! Tell her Easter Eggs are a pagan tradition anyway!
But seriously, Brownies do promise allegiance to God and have always been, as far as I am aware, a Christian organisation. They should have told you this before your child joined, but obviously the leaders of your Brownie group aren't very good Christians themselves. I would report the leader to someone official, it gives Christianity a bad name to have someone like that in charge.

musica · 09/04/2003 10:45

I would agree, the Easter egg business is really off, but I wouldn't worry about the blessing - if you believe in a Christian God, then it is a nice thing to have, if you don't then it has no meaning to you anyway! I think Brownies is a Christian organization though, so I guess it would have some christian leaning.

Lindy · 09/04/2003 11:59

I was a cub scout leader for many years and both brownies and cubs does have a religious background and it is part of the promise. All leaders have to make it clear that they do have a religious faith (does not have to be Christian of course) - your brownie leader should have made this much clearer when your DD joined brownies. I would always explain this aspect of cubs to the parents and yes, I did expect them to attend Church services - if there was a good reason not to do so (ie: attending a different church, visiting a long lost relation etc) I would understand but in most cases it was because the parents couldn't be bothered to bring them to church - I even offered to arrange transport but that often fell on deaf ears. I do feel if you join an organisation you should be prepared to abide by its 'rules'.

Agree with the easter egg bribery, that sounds really petty & will only make Brown Owl unpopular.

Ange8 · 09/04/2003 12:42

There is no requirement to be a Christian to be a Brownie, according to the Guides' website www.girlguiding.co.uk. It says that girls can be from any faith, and that the requirements of their faith will be respected. It is still an integral part of the guiding movement, however, that members should have some faith or other, and that they will work on their 'spritual development'.

I am an atheist (with no 'faith' in any higher being), and my daughters have joined the local brownies. This hasn't been a problem at all for the brownie pack and leaders. They also have muslim girls in the pack.

However, brownie packs are often linked to a local church - our brownies are the 'St *' pack, linked to the local C of E Church, and there are also packs linked to the local methodist and catholic churches. I take it as read that the brownies at our pack will have some activities at the church to which they are linked. Most packs, as far as I know, attend 'church parade' at their church.

I have struggled with how to deal with this. My kids enjoy taking a full part in brownies, and so want to attend church parade. All the brownies go up to be blessed by the rector. I have explained my views on religion to my kids (and they say they share them), but I acknowledge that they may find it easier, whenever they are in any house of worship of any faith, to accept ministrations made by believers in the spirit they are usually intended - as an expression of love. My kids were relieved that I didn't expect them to be the odd ones out by refusing to go up to the rector for a blessing.

Like other posters, I am shocked to hear about the easter egg gift and the strong words used by the brownie leader. That does seem to me to have been handled extraordinarily insensitively. I am not surprised that some of the brownies were upset. Some may not have attended church on Mothers Day because they have no faith or some other faith, but there might have been all sorts of other reasons - illness, visits to grandmothers, ... I know a girl who lost her mother at an early age, and who goes to the cemetery (some distance away) with her dad on mothers day to take her mum flowers and gifts. I cannot imagine wanting her to be penalised for that.

If your daughter enjoys brownies (my kids do, as the pack has some really good activities and holidays) then I would be wary about creating antagonism with the leader at this stage - but I do think it might be worth mentioning, in a friendly way, that you are concerned about the use of rewards for things which might not be in the brownies control, particularly if the rewards exclude those from different faiths - diversity being a subject on which the organsation now considers itself quite hot.

Ange8 · 09/04/2003 12:44

Spent so long typing that, I missed Lindy's message - which says it all, really, in faw fewer words than I used!

bossykate · 09/04/2003 13:01

hello aniles. you may be interested in The Woodcraft Folk . i have heard them described as "wholemeal brownies". there is no religious element to the organisation as far as i am aware.

lisalisa · 09/04/2003 14:17

Message withdrawn

Tinker · 09/04/2003 14:20

bk - thanks for posting that link. Was trying to encourage my daughter to consider the Brownies recently but hadn't realised there was a religious element. Shall investigate the Woodcraft Folk further

robinw · 10/04/2003 07:47

message withdrawn

mum2toby · 10/04/2003 08:07

I am not religious and was not aware that the Brownies encouraged faith of any denomination!

However, when my sister (1yr older than me) joined the Brownies, I was SOOOO jealous. When I was old enough my Mum let me go to them to see if I liked it. I stood at the side and listened to them calling the leaders Brown Owl, Tawny Owl etc.... this confused me first off.... then they all danced around a big toadstool singing a strange song before putting money in the toadstool!!!! I can't remember anything to do with religion, but that one experience was enough for me....!
It's a bit off the subject, but thought I would add a perspective from a child who did NOT enjoy the brownies.

SueW · 10/04/2003 08:15

One thing I think is totally wrong about the scouting movement (and I am involved) is that people are expected to have a faith of some sort. Atheists are not allowed to join.

I find this incredible. To me, the implication is that atheists have insufficient moral code of conduct. Why should anyone need to believe in a higher entity?

One day I'll take it up with them but I've got too much on my plate at the moment!

Meid · 10/04/2003 10:11

mum2toby I can totally relate to that. I went to the Brownies for a few months when I was a kid and found it totally bizarre. I just didn't understand that the toadstools were about, calling the leaders owls and some things I've probably forgotten.
As far as religion and the Brownies goes, I was made to go to Sunday school when I was a Brownie. At Sunday school I felt an outscast because my parents didn't attend church (had to sit on a different table!) and at Brownies too they definitely favoured the girls whose parents did attend the church. In fact, I remember once there was a fancy dress competition and I was undoubtedly the best but I came second while the girl who came first had parents who were friends with the vicar.
I am quite saddened to read that things like this still go on.

Original poster
Aniles · 10/04/2003 16:08

Thanks for all your replies.

I'm glad it's not just me who thinks the leader was out of order. I'm not sure though that I could confront her about it (she's a bit intimidating, and I'm a bit of a wimp lol).

I have looked on the guides website and it states that 'Guiding is open to every girl or young woman - regardless of race, faith or personal circumstance'. I take this to mean that a brownie doesn't have to have a faith, although some who have responded on this thread think otherwise, so I have emailed the guiding association directly to try and clear the matter up. I'll let you know what their response is, if I get one.

And thanks Bossykate for the link to The Woodcraft Folk, I've emialed them for more info.

Thanks again

Aniles xxx

OP posts:
Lindy · 10/04/2003 20:44

Aniles - that's a very interesting point about 'regardless of ..... faith .......' it's certainly different from my understanding (which might be out of date of course); I would be really interested in hearing more once you've had a response.

Can you keep us posted?
Many thanks

robinw · 10/04/2003 22:20

message withdrawn

jasper · 11/04/2003 20:56

I had a love/hate relationship with the brownies. It was my first experience of nepotism!
A girl who joined a year after me and who was a year younger got a fast track promotion to seconder of my group ( I was desperate for the position) while I remained an ordinary gnome indefinitely, despite having armfuls of badges and consistently winning the "whitest socks" award each week.

It turned out her mum was a BIG friend of Tawny Owl......draw your own conclusions.

robinw · 12/04/2003 07:23

message withdrawn

jac34 · 12/04/2003 08:32

Jasper,
Funny you should say that about the nepotism, DH has just commented that, that was exactly his experience of cubs, and that he never got any badges, because the leader hated him.
I found Brownies a very wierd experience, all that dancing around toadstools and chanting, I found it very ritualistic, very anti-chritianity in a way. I never realy enjoyed it and was forced to attend, as I was an only child and my Mother thought it was good for me to mix with other children !!!
This has acctually sparked a discussion betweeen DH and I, that we would never want our children (ds's 0nly 4.5)to have to experience the same thing !!!

Jimjams · 12/04/2003 09:19

Can a child of brownies age really be atheist???? I went to brownies, my dad was an atheist, my mum agnostic. I went to a church school and had been babtised (tradition). I wouldn't say I had any religion at the time. As I grew up I first became a christian and then atheist. Neither of my boys have been christened, but I wouldn't call them atheist. I have no idea what dh's classification of himself is- agnostic probably.

Do any children of brownies age have any faith other than that of their family???

Swipe left for the next trending thread