Brownies and Christianity

[Aniles]

Hi all

Well, 'that' site is down again so, here goes, my first 'proper' post on mumsnet )

My daughter (7) has been a member of the Brownie Guides for a few months and really enjoys it. We are not Christians and I didn't think that she needed to be in order to join. However, a couple of Sunday's ago there was a Brownie parade held at the local church to celebrate Mothering Sunday. Dd simply went along because she didn't want to miss out. I was told that the Brownies would simply sit through a service but I later found out that each girl had been blessed by the priest. Dd didn't have any idea what was going on and I don't think she should have been expected to take part without first explaining to her what was going to happen and why, so that she could make a decision as to whether she wanted to be blessed.

At Brownies today the leader said that she was very dissapointed that some girls didn't attend the church service and that since they had all made a promise to love God she 'expects' all Brownies to attend church. She then gave each girl who did attend a big chocolate Easter egg to say thank you.

I saw this as a big slap in the face to those who didn't attend (a big chocolate anything is a pretty big deal to many 7 year olds lol). After all, if it was just a nice treat then all the girls would've received one, and if it was simply a thank you gesture then it would've been given out after the church service, not in front of the other girls who were obviously very disappointed.

Now, apart from the bribary aspect, the general message I got from this is that if the Brownies are not church-going Christians than they will be excluded from treats.

I thought that the wording of the Brownie promise was chaged to 'My God' in order to take into account all different religions and beliefs. Why, then, are they expected to attend a Christian church?

Can you please give me your opinions on this?

Thanks

An

Jimjams, if your question stems out of my post, then although my daughter isn't atheist, she has no religion. She is not christened or baptised. She gets whatever religious teaching is given at school and from home she gets 'some people believe...'.

DH calls himself Protestant. I was christened a Catholic but neither of us practice. When I put on my application to be a Beaver leader in answer to the question 'Religion', None, all hell was let loose, if you'll pardon the expression with my explicitly being asked whether I am atheist. I'm not. At least I don't think I am. I am quite happy to take their promise but it means no more to me than swearing on a bunch of bananas.

Bloomin' nuisance the whole thing.

wasn't particularly in response to your post suew- but thanks for your reply. Must say I find it odd. I just don't think any child of brownies age would have made any sort of actual decision about religion.

I was 'horribly' pious when I was a Brownie! I was raised a baptist but went to Brownies at a C of E church. And I loved church parade with all the ceremony and getting blessed! I was going through my 'Song of bernadette' phase at the time! Now I would probably admit to being a deist, best defined I think as

"One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

Er, Robinw, you do realise I was joking (about the white socks and badges indicating leadership qualities) , don't you??

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Incidentally Robinw , the white socks game was great fun and worked as follows.
Each group ( elves, sprites etc.) had a special tin ( I think it might have been an old formula tin!) with the plastic lid taped on and a small hole in it. When members of the group did something good they got a "point" to put through the hole in the tin. ( The points were made from chopped up drinking straws) At the end of the year Brown owl cracked open the tins and the group who had accumumlated the most got a special prize.

You got a point for attendance and bonus points for getting a badge.

As for the white socks, each week we played a game where the brownies sat in their groups and Tawny owl would ask for the sixer to send forward the brownie in her group with , say, the whitest socks and then tawny would scrutinise those who had been put forward and award a point to the winner. Then the brownies would go back to their places and Tawny would select another category, such as cleanest fingernails or tidiest hair! Sounds a bit twee but it was great fun.

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Robinw you underestimate the lengths a gnome will go to to win points for her team....I kept my "best" socks especially for brownies, my mother had nothing to do with it.

I finally got a reply from the Guiding Association and thought some of you might be interested in their response:

Thank you for your e-mail and I am sorry for the delay in responding to your query.
Girlguiding UK is a voluntary organisation based on personal values, and is open to any girl and young woman (regardless of race, faith or any other circumstance), providing she is able to understand and is willing to make The Guide Promise to the best of her ability.

Like any other organisation, but particularly because it is incorporated by Royal Charter and is a registered charity, the Association is entitled to establish its own rules, including any criteria it wishes to lay down in relation to membership.

The Promise, which all our members make, is central to all guiding activities and adheres to the fundamental principles to which all Girl Guides and Girl Scouts around the world hold fast. This is a threefold commitment that asks that the girl should do her best to:
· Seek spiritual development
· Contribute to society
· Live by a simple code - The Guide Law

The wording of The Promise ("I promise that I will do my best: To love my God" was chosen to reflect the multi-faith and multi-cultural membership of guiding. Promising to love one's God can have a broad interpretation. The wording is meant to capture the understanding of a personal God, and also the need for young women to explore their spiritual self.

Girlguiding UK is not a Christian organisation and does not promote any religious belief above another. Attendance at any act of worship can be seen as part of the spiritual development of members and is voluntary. This is one of the rules that is stipulated in The Guiding Manual - the rule book of Girlguiding UK.

If you could let me know which unit your daughter is a member of I can pass this on to the local Commissioner to look into, but I hope that I have been able to clarify Girlguiding UK's position in regards to the place of faith and worship within the programme.

Yours sincerely

Jo Hobbs
Development Manager: Programme

Girlguiding UK
17-19 Buckingham Palace Road
London
SW1W 0PT

As an adult leader with GirlGuiding - although now running a Ranger unit, which caters for 14-18 year old girls, can I just add that Guiding is an organisation which is open to all girls and women, whatever their creed, culture or background.

Membership does not rely on the promise being made, although girls are encouraged to explore their own attitudes to faith, and the promise does include the phrase 'to love my God' (emphasis mine). This can be adapted to allow inclusion of religions which recognise more than one deity.

The unit which I run does attend church on a few occasions each year - we attend a Thinking Day service, march on Rememberance Sunday and on one or two other occasions when invited. I do encourage members of the unit to attend, especially to Rememberance Sunday, but I would never make any young woman feel that she could not be a part of the unit if she did not wish to attend a church service.

I suggest you have a quiet word with your daughter's Guider - she may not have realised how some may have objected to her actions. If you are still unhappy then ask for the name and contact number of the District Commissioner and speak to her - maybe arranging a transfer to another Brownie Pack for your daughter. But most of all please don't deprive your daughter of the chance to be a Brownie at what will be an exciting time for the movement.

My daughter started asking about Rainbows today and had already heard of The Promise. She then mentioned that you have to believe in god so, wriggling out of it, I told her it just meant 'your god' who could be whoever you like. So she said 'Mummy'