Manchester mumsnetters - how are you going to vote re the Congestion Charge?

[Tinker]

I'm on the fence.

Agree with it in principle but think Manchester's public transport is still too crap (from where I live)

What do you think?

I think it'll get a No vote anyway because it just feels like another expense atm

As I said vote against by all means but make your decision on facts and not myths. It is a myth that you are safer in a car than on public transport too. Absolutely not true.

a myth im safer in my own car than on a bus . Yeah ok..

Ok, so exempt if travelling for hospital trips ... but as I said, not wanting to travel with lo's.
So yet again, a no vote.

I find this a line about the charge a bit worrying, too.

"* At 2007 prices for pre-registered users."

How long before the charges increased?

Also, why do Trafford Park employees get 100% discount for the outer ring charge?

Once again the congestion charge only applies during the week and during the 'rush hour' times of 7.00am to 9.30am and 4.00pm to 6.30pm. I'd be surprised if many parents wanted to travel at these times with their dcs but if they did then they would be perfectly safe on a bus. And, yes, the safety record on public transport is much better than in a car. How very odd to suggest otherwise.

Here you go:

'Statistically, it is clearly safer to travel by public transport.
Deaths per trip, per hour of exposure, or per journey
length are all lower when the mode of travel is by bus,
coach or rail.
However, not all users recognise the truth of the statistics. Furthermore, many potential
users are put off from travel by public transport because of a perception that such modes
offer less protection for their personal security.'

From here:

www.passengerfocus.org.uk/news-and-publications/document-search/document.asp?dsid=1745

So yes we're make to myths and misinformaion rather than fact.

Going against the grain here and agreeing with 5 candles, gets a yes from me. The fact is far to many poeple drive into the city centre than need to and this clogs up the roads uneecessarily. i have to drive for work but on the days I don't if the tram is extended as planned to where we live (Didsbury) I'll be getting the tram (down to Wythenshwe Hosp).

I do get aboslutely sick of seeing empty buses in South Manc all the time, I live near Wilmslow rd so you'd have to have a pretty good excuse not to get the bus to town/university/MRI etc.

Another pain in the arse is Glossop, we have friends in Shef but don't see them too often because of the obscene amount of traffic and it's been this way for 10+ years!!!!

FC, Aren't you listening to me?
Im not after statistics, im after security. Statistics say you are less likely to be in an accidents on a bus etc that in a car BUT what im more worried about are the weirdo's im subjected to on public transport.
The weirdo's that seem to congregate around bus stations.

In my youth (not that old actually ) I used to travel by bus and train and metro BUT even as a teenager/adult I still felt vunerable travelling and I had no responsabilities. NOW I have 2 gorgeous kids who I don't particuly want to subject to this.
ALSO for me to get to an from manchester in car would mean one journey for 20 mins. By public transport it would take me several buses, several changes and waiting around (?) and prob double that time (if not longer).
By train it would mean walking (fine) and a train then more walking (fine) totalling around 60 mins.

AND as my first post on this thread said, im not prepared to be bullied by the government. "manchester accept it or won't have a penny spent ".
Freedom of choice.

Oh and just to add.............look at today. SNOW and the country goes into meltdown. I would rather sit in traffic in a warm comfy car than to stand around for an hour for the train in wet awful weather.
OR to sit on a bus (eugghh..I recall the days..sat in stale air ..)

Sorry but you won't change my vote.

a big YES over here,

hopeful it will get some people out of their cars. Or get them sharing.

There has been such terrible propoganda on both sides though. - anyone know who is paying for the 'no' campaign?

maybe several businesses..?

The traff centre is covered with NO campaign so maybe its a mixture.
Good idea imo as it allows people to make their own choices.

Yes you do get odd balls on buses but I HATE this "peasant wagon" attitude people have to them, get your heads out of your arses!! I got the bus to the Whitworth Art gallery today with dd in the SNOW, took us 20mins door to door and I didn't have to park my car in some Moss Side back street just to worry about it being broken into.

Why the fixation by travelling by car for some people I would have thought city dwellers would by definition be a little less provincial about things. If I go to the City centre I get public transport, why drive?????

too right peacelilly, and I used to live on the dread 192 route!

and I love the tram, we live in Stretford and though packed it is so quick (10 mins to city centre)

I agree shhh that they need to have both sides of the arguement.

peacelily,my last few posts explain why I drive!
Im not a city dweller and I don't see buses as "peasant wagons" In fact never heard of the term.

Lucky for you that it takes 20 mins by bus,would take me no where near as I explained. I also don't have one toddler to content with but 2..not the easiest of tasks !

For me a car is mostly convenience and for the time being its my preferred mode of transport.
I don't see it taking me an age to drive city centre and park, imo less than public transport given previous experience.

'Im not after statistics, im after security.'

Right, so you're one of these people who would rather go with perception and prejudice than facts. How odd. The statistics represent the security. You are less likely to be safe in your own car = fact.

'The weirdo's that seem to congregate around bus stations.'

What, like me and my dcs you mean!!

And a 'weirdo' on a bus is statistically less likely to harm you than a traffic accident.

In spite of your prejudice there aren't many 'weirdos' travelling at the peak times (7.00am to 9.30am and 4.00pm to 6.30pm) anyway just honest commuters getting to work.

And actually there are plenty or 'weirdos' who travel by car and can be incredibly abusive because they're protected by car. I've encountered several on my journey home tonight.

The thing that is bugging me is not that people are voting no but some of their reasons. Most of which here are complete bunkum

1.) Dc's hospital appointments which would be exempt anyway.

2.) Security when you're statistically much safer on public transport.

3.) The idea of having to be on public transport late at night when congestion charge only applies to peak times.

In fact, what's really odd is that the congestion charge would apparently not affect some of the people who are arguing against it here in any way at all except to make public transport better for the people who use it (and people who might use it were it better). I think that's incredibly selfish and stupid.

I never called you or your dc weirdo's so please don't put words into my mouth.

Its irrelvant whether those that are voting no will be affected or not, the fact is that all of us at some time would be subjected to a congestion charge should it be enforced. And we all have a right to vote how we wish.

Also, as I said I don't want to be with my lo's in manchester trying to use public transport when its either bad weather or dark nights (have you noticed its dark from 4pm...) I would rather pay parking, petrol and the upkeep of a car. Thats my choice.

To call me selfish and stupid is quite a harsh and uncalled for comment. Quite personal.

I never lowered myself by insulting people, oh by the way weirdo's are in abundance esp around manchester centre. I don't mean workers or shoppers.

So, lets see how the voting goes.

I am also getting annoyed at the short term attitude of people making this decison.

And it's all ... well it's going to cost me.

Well it might, it's going to cost me. I drive and live within the boundaries so will get stung when I drive in set hours. I have a chronic condition (ME) which means on some days I really cant use public transport, but I don't qualify for an exemption. This means when I am well enough to work I will have to pay all the time, with no ability to use public transport when I am having a bad day.

That said I don't care, I know it will mean that I will make a decision to drive less than I do, I know it will mean my DH will get his bike out the shed and start using it again, and all of this will mean that we reduce our petrol usage. and that can only be a good thing, and if it costs us to slow down global warming. Good.

Shh, you said 'what im more worried about are the weirdo's im subjected to on public transport.' and talked about, 'The weirdo's that seem to congregate around bus stations.' I'm just pointing out that this is a very unpleasant PREJUDICE and that the vast majority of people who travel on public transport esp at peak times are honest ordinary commuters on their way to work.

You say you've never 'lowered yourself by insulting people' but I think your comments above are exactly that - insulting.

'Its irrelvant whether those that are voting no will be affected or not,'

OMG, you WHAT?? So you feel entitled to make a decision which won't have any impact on you but will have a very positive impact on people who currently use public transport and those who would like to if it were better?? I just find that unbelievable.

'the fact is that all of us at some time would be subjected to a congestion charge should it be enforced.'

NO. You are only subjec to the congestion charge if you travel at peak times into the city.

9 out of 10 people who travel into Manchester won't pay the charge but everyone who does travel in by public transpot will benefit from the improvements.

Plus we're only talking about £1 to cross outer ring and £2 for inner ring during peak times which is hardly extortionate if you are doing it exceptionally. A small price to pay for the impact you are making on congestion and the environment IMHO.

'And we all have a right to vote how we wish.'

Well, yes but it's my view that you should make your decision based on FACT and not MYTH or perception and that your decision should take into account benefits for everyone and for the long-term.

'Also, as I said I don't want to be with my lo's in manchester trying to use public transport when its either bad weather or dark nights (have you noticed its dark from 4pm...) I would rather pay parking, petrol and the upkeep of a car. Thats my choice.'

Yes, that is your choice WHICH YOU STILL HAVE EVEN WITH THE CONGESTION CHARGE. If you want to continue to drive into the city centre during peak times you can but the public transport alternative will be improved for those who choose or have to use that.

'To call me selfish and stupid is quite a harsh and uncalled for comment. Quite personal.'

I'm not calling you stupid. I am saying it is selfish and stupid to vote against improvements to the public transport which benefit everyone when you're not even going to be personally affected by the congestion charge IMHO.

Great post Noonki.

"Plus we're only talking about £1 to cross outer ring and £2 for inner ring during peak times which is hardly extortionate "

It's an extra £6 per day.
£120 per month.
And there's no guarantee that the charge wouldn't rise.
Some people have no option but to be in work at times that mean travelling at peak time.

Wouldn't people try to negotiate flexi time arrangements at work that might mean any congestion would be shifted to outside the charging period?

juule I was responding specifically to shh's comment that everyone would be affected by the charge. Certainly it would add up if you were paying it daily which is the incentive to use the new, improved public transport system instead. Certainly there would be also be more incentive for flexi working, working from home and car sharing too. All good things.

"the new, improved public transport system instead. "

Now that really takes a huge leap of faith.

Most people who are commuting into Manchester use public transport anyway so they benefit - a good thng.

Those people who travel by car would be motivated to use public transport, car share, work from home etc instead - a good thing.

Those people who don't travel to Manchester during peak times will not be affected but they would benefit from enhanced public transport if and when they did use it.

Disabled people + people travelling for hospital appts are exempt so unaffected.

All in all it's hard to see what there is to argue with except for the exceptional individual cases for whom it would be very difficult to travel by pt and I'm sure thier work place will have to find ways round this.

On the contrary juule. Once again, the CC cannot be introduced until 80% of improvements are in place. How can it not get better?

Don't get the conspiracy theory and negativity TBH. We're being offered a fantastic opportunity here which will benefit everyone in the long-term. Either we take it or we get nothing - public transport gets no better and congestion (and with it the environment and health problems) get worse and the Govt holds on to the money. Surely it's a no brainer.