Manchester mumsnetters - how are you going to vote re the Congestion Charge?

[Tinker]

I'm on the fence.

Agree with it in principle but think Manchester's public transport is still too crap (from where I live)

What do you think?

I think it'll get a No vote anyway because it just feels like another expense atm

Hmmmn, I have received no paperwork on this. I live abouth 5 miles north of Rochdale, should I get a vote?

It is likely to be a 'no' but it would be nice to be given all the facts so I can make an informed decision re my stance.

fivecandles - I'm not in your area but asthma rates are also linked to breastfeeding, any idea what the bf rate is there? Also, I imagine people with children will find night and weekend shopping, impossible.

Here's the NO site www.stopthecharge.co.uk/the-charge.php

Would help if they could spell Stockholm correctly

Here's the YES site www.wevoteyes.co.uk/ourcampaign.aspx

The models all look so bloody miserable and/or smug

JodieO as most people work during the week shopping at any time EXCEPT for weekends and evenings is impossible. But the point is that the congestion charge is only at PEAK times. So if you were a SAHM for example and wanted to take your kids into Manchester mid-day you wouldn't have to pay. Having said that my kids love going on the train and tram!

Perkin, I've seen very detailed plans and there is a promise that the charge would not be introduced until 80% of these were in place.

As for cost, it's important to look at the bigger picture. It's not just the cost of petrol vs train/tram fare it's mileage, parking (huge cost), then the costs of running a car - insurance, taxation, MOT, repairs etc, etc. Some people will be able to do without a car altogether or maybe only have one car where they would have needed 2 per household.

If people need to make small changes to their lifestyle so they buy bulky items on the Internet (more environmentally friendly) and have to walk 5 or 10 minutes to their nearest tram stop or from it to work then that's probably so much the better too. I was a lot fitter oddly enough when I lived in London and had a 20 minute walk to the nearest tube station and then a short walk to work and actually you notice this about Londoners - they're just used to walking as part of their normal day and a lot fitter as a result. A good thing IMHO.

fc - where are the detailed plans? I have looked on the official sites and can't see anything about fares, or caps on them, nor firm plans for bus improvements. I would be happy to be proved wrong. and there is still the issue about charging to come off the outer ring making journeys inside the ring from north mcr to south mcr cheaper via town, which increases congestion.

fc - I do agree about walking though!

we moved here from London 2 months ago. People are amazed that I walk 15mins to toddler group and leave the car at home, especially if it's raining. likewise, DH's colleagues think he's crazy for cycling to work, even though we're only 4 miles from town.

but the problem is until I see concrete promises about the fares (as in london), I would not support the charge, as it will still be more cost effective to drive. and even though we are keen public transport users, I believe that as in London, driving needs to be financially disincentivised in order for CC to work . in London CC is more expensive than a peak travelcard. In manchester it will be less than peak tram fare.

by detailed info I mean numbers rather than "more" or "better"

how many more buses?
on which routes?
running how often?
until what time at night?
where will the bus lanes be?
will there be new routes from east to west (sadly lacking currently)?

sorry for the multiple posts - my thoughts are disjointed this morning! basically I would support all day charging to enter the inner ring. And make it bloody expensive. Given that tram fares for two from here into town are the best part of a fiver, even off-peak, make it £7.50. And the traffic in the centre of town is awful all day, which makes things hard for those of us who drive for our work (community health professional here!).

for the outer zone, there would need to be guaranteed, specific, measureable improvements in public transport for me to be convinced.

No, agree haven't seen info about fares. But, as I've said, if you look at the big picture (petrol + parking + costs of running car) public transport is going to be cheaper. As for buses I think the idea at least where I am is that the trams will replace the need for more buses. Trams are better than buses in that they are more environmentally friendly, faster and less likely to clog up roads. Increasingly city and town centres should be car free IMHO.

not everywhere will get a tram, and everywhere could have a better bus service, especially east-west. a particular need here is for more peripheral routes. if I want to get to eg bolton, I have to travel south into town, and go back north again. ditto travelling from eg stretford to stockport in the south. this needs to be looked at.

I think living in London has shown that people don't look at the big picture, and that the only way to get people to change is to slap a big ole' upfront charge on. at the moment peak tram return to town is £2.80, but only £2 c-charge. (costs more to my work as I then need a bus, and there's limited options on integrated tickets).

Cap fares, and increase the charge, and it might just work.

As an aside, the city council and the NHS trust to whom I am seconded INSIST I drive a car for work, when I am certain my job could be done equally efficiently on public transport (I cover a small and congested part of the city). I think given that manchester city council is pro-charge, it needs to lead by example and encourage its own employees to use public transport.

No argument with you mostly. And it's true that not everyone will see the immediate benefits personally. I still think the personal inconvenience of some in the short term is very much outweighed by the long-term benefits to all. I disagree about people not looking at the bigger picture in London. You'd be mad to drive or even own a car there unless you were driving elsewhere regularly. And congestion charging etc has led to some brilliant, money and eco friendly developments like car sharing schemes. And as I say it's not just tram/ bus/ train fares vs petrol it's much, much more than that (costs of parking, mainenance, insurance but also cost to environment and to others of often ONE PERSON driving a car). Agree about example setting and actually I think every employer should be much more proactive in encouraging car sharing etc.

Im a NO. Not happy with public transport and tbh prob wouldn't use it having got the luxary of a car. Life is hard enough without adding to it, don't even want to think about shopping/medical trips into manchester with 2 lo's in tow on a train or bus

Can't believe that the government seem to be bullying us into voting yes (by announcing that is we vote NO we won't have a penny spent on us re: public transport) shocking imo.

But the point of the proposals is that if you vote yes then public transport will improve. The congestion charge can't be put in place until 80% of the proposals are in place. Amazes me that people who moan on about the state of public transport don't want to see it IMPROVED which is what this would improve. And last time I looked driving into Manchester and finding somewhere to park wasn't too great either. And it will get worse. If something isn't done then driving and fumes etc will continue to get worse but public transport won't be any better either. Go figure. Some people need to stop thinking about their indivdiual convenience in the short term and start thinking about everyone's needs in the future!

BUT fc, the government seem to promise alot atm yet don't seem to always deliver..

Maybe if they show an improvment in public transport then we may reconsider. Till then......

Yes, I do think about my own convenience above everyone elses..why on earth would I choose to sit on a bus at 5pm or 8pm or earlier with the lo's or even off on a night out when I could be secure in my own car..?

Reminds me of when my friend & I got caught up in manchester during the rangers match..how vunerable did we feel.? Yeah sure we choose to be there BUT we didn't anticipate what would happen. We tried for public transport (train)..no trains leaving..no trains could leave..we opted for a taxi at a cost of £55. What improvment could they make there to public transport..? takes me back to my above comment of security.

Not sure whare you struggle with parking..? We have been into manchester quite a lot and never struggle with spaces and even on a saturday..

NO AT OUR HOUSE TOO......

But the congestion charge is during PEAK times on weak days!! Nobody's going to force you to sit on a bus with your LOs at 8 pm or on a Saturday. How odd! The congestion charge is about getting those people who work in the city and currently travel in by car on public transport. And the improvements to public transport have to funded somehow - erm, the congestion charge.

Some very odd arguments and scare mongering here which are often coming from total ignorance of what the congestion charge will actually mean.

No from me also. I work on community for the NHS and we have been told we will not be excempt when working, so we will pay to work. Potentially community nurses will cross boundaries numerous times in a working week. Also bothers me that charging begins at 7am, the majority of hospital shift workers begin at 7.30 and probably never encounter congestion at that time

well then FC, you vote yes and we will vote no.

Ok, if its during peak hours then of course that will affect people with lo's and hospital appointments etc..?!

BTW,you never said where you struggle with parking.? I usually find behind kendals good, or kendals or even selfridges/m&s or even opposite selfridges.

I think my point about parking is that even if you find a space you have to pay and petrol + parking (+ cost of running a car) means that it is much more economical to get a tram/ train or combination. The majority of hospital appointments are not going to be during peak time (although I agree they should be exempt). Disabled people and pensioners are aldready exempt. Agree about NHS workers and surely that will be discussed. Personally I never drive into the city centre. I get the train and walk. My dcs love getting train, it's good for us to walk. I think the other issue is that driving (during peak times) is only going to get worse. You might find it ok now but what about in five years time and in ten? Do you still want to me stuck in traffic jam emitting fuels into the atmosphere for ages when you could be merrily nipping into the city in 20 mins without worrying about whether you car will still be there in one piece when you come back and pay the extortiionate parking fee??

'The congestion charge will only operate during the week and during the 'rush hour' times of 7.00am to 9.30am and 4.00pm to 6.30pm.'

So all this stuff about children shivering on buses at 8 pm or vulnerable women at midnight is just bollocks frankly. Scaremongering and ignorance.

If you look here you'll see a list of exemptions

www.gmfuturetransport.co.uk/CongestionCharges/Discounts/

It includes patients attending hospital appointments.

Vote no by all means but I think you should check your facts before telling people how the charge will negatively affect them.

FC, I still don't want to change my mind.

DS has spent alot of time in his 21 months of life in pendlebury hospital, this is relocating to manchester centre. Yes he does have some appoinments within peak hours 9am or 4pm appointments will mean leaving home and accessing the centre around 3/3.30pm thus liable for the charge.

Or what is ds was readmitted again during rush hour..? Time sat on a bus.? Or a charge either not wanted imo.

As I said before I prefer the comfort of my own car. Why would I wish to try and control 2 toddlers and possibly 3 in time on a train or bus.? .
Warm, comfy, safe

Read the above post. You will be exempt from the charge if travelling to the city centre for a hosptial appt.