Why is it that people are so obsessed with testing for Downs syndrome, when there are so many other disabilities which cannot be tested for, that are far, far worse?

[wannaBe]

It baffles me.

When we fall pregnant we are offered tests, and scans, most, although not all of which relate to the detection of Downs Syndrome.

At 12 weeks we are offered a nuchal fold scan to determine the likelyhood of the baby having downs, and women over 35 are routinely offered anmio to detect whether the baby has downs.

92% of pregnancies where Downs is detected are terminated .

And yet there are lots of other disabilities, such as cerebral palsy, autism, other disabilities which cause learning difficulties, which cannot be detected in utero, but which can be much, much worse than downs.

So what is it about Downs that is so scary?

Or would people have far more stressful pregnancies if all disabilities could be tested for, and would they feel that they had to be sure their baby would be perfect?

I have found in RL that people either get it (and understand that ds1 is a human being and to be treated and talked about as such) or they don't get it and think that being disabled makes ds1 fundamentally different from other children.

Therefore I think threads like these are rather pointless tbh. In RL we just bin the ones that fall into the 2nd group and spend our time with people who 'get' ds1 and the way we feel about him

"People with SN children are not likely to agree that their lives would be better without their children when they obviously love them unconditionally because that's what happens when you have children."

I am intrigued as to why people seem unable to accept at face value that this is because its not true.

If I said when ds1 was a baby "He has made my life better' people might have vomited on the spot at the preciousness but it would have been accepted.

Why therefore am I not allowed to say it when he is 9 without as assumption that I'm in some sort of denial

(sorry for hijack) jimjams did you see my thread about dd it is in sn

OK, Why are people afraid of DS and other disabilities in their children?

Because they are prejucided, ignorant, selfish and a bit dim who all think all disabled children are burdens to their families and should never have been born. Obviously.

That's what you wanted to hear isn't it? And that's what some of you are hearing even though that's what no one is saying or no one believes.

My question is why ask a question if you're not interested in the answer?

Oh sorry, it was just an excuse to have a rant against women who choose antenatal testing and terminations and tell them how ignorant and stupid and selfish and 'dim' they are.

I'll know better next time.

"Oh sorry, it was just an excuse to have a rant against women who choose antenatal testing and terminations and tell them how ignorant and stupid and selfish and 'dim' they are."

Well I will object to that as I have explained very carefully (as have others) that I am not opposed to antenatal testing. My concerns about antenatal testing centre around the way it is done that gives women little support, and doesn't present alternatives equally. There's a very pertinent thread on the failures of support during antenatal testing elsewhere at the moment.

But yes you carry on assuming I;'m some sort of pro-lifer because otherwise how could I possibly have not wanted a chance to get rid of my son

I see Claire, it's just upsetting because some of the passion is so misdirected.

If some people had bothered to read my posts they would have read about 27 pages ago that I am very positive about disability and children and adults with disability and the people who give birth to them and raise them. I am very well aware that the majority have very happy fulfilled and rewarding lives.

That's just not what they want to hear though is it?

The reason I've stuck it out so long is because I hoped that at some point people would stop inventing arguments that I am not actually saying and stop being so damned vicious and unpleasant and perhaps start to take an interest in people's answers to the question on the OP.

But it's very clear that some people never wanted to hear those answers.

I'm sorry fivecandles - you have made it clear that you see children who are disabled as fundamentally different to those who are not disabled. Saying 'ooh I really like disabled people' doesn't equate to being positive about disability. You don't even realise what you're saying do you?

look jimjams, for some reason which only you can know you want to make me out to be a bad person with bad attitudes towards people with disability. You have no evidence at all that I have those attitudes. The reason why you have no evidence is because I haven't got the attitudes that for some reason you want me to have. The extent of your desire to make me into a bad person with all manner of prejudices and stupidies now emerges in you making up quotes for me. Why?

Where is your EVIDENCE that I think the things that you believe I do. It's odd.

I think as I say the OP and some of the people who got involved in it were really just looking for some sort of scapegoat to attach all the prejudices etc that they have encountered elsewhere.

Scapegoat me all you like but I don't have the prejudices and ignorance you obviously want me to.

Erm this thread. Where you treat those of us who are happy yet have children with disabilities as unusual. I have repeated several times that you see us as happy despite our children. That's really very clear.

But this is fairly pointless.

jimjam; you can say children with disabilities are different from children that arn't disabled...because they are different...but that doesn't mean you're not positive about disability?

Evidence?

Oh sorry, you'd rather just make stuff up.

There's actually nothing that I've ACTUALLY WRITTEN which indicates the sort of attitudes that you are suggesting that I have.

Why are you so paranoid?

They are not fundamentally different. Within a family they are exactly the same as any other child. Just a child. Nothing more, nothing less.

'We are talking about human beings and they and their needs as well as their parents reaction to them are entirely individual, unpredicatable and legitimate.'

I said this 34 pages ago.

Loads of evidence of negative attitudes towards people with disabilites there

Such a shame people can't accept that what someone is saying is what they actually believe even when they repeat it a zillion times.

In fact, then they're condemned for being repetitive as well as dim, sanctimonious, prejudiced and all the other insults.

I wonder exactly where the prejudice is coming from on this thread. Because actually it's not coming from me.

fivecandles - get over yourself! I've dipped in and out of this thread so I may have missed some of your 'pearls of wisdom' but you're not a lone voice of reason in a blinkered world.

You say " I am very positive about disability and children and adults with disability and the people who give birth to them and raise them. I am very well aware that the majority have very happy fulfilled and rewarding lives."

What does that 'majority' mean? I think it means that you have judged the lives of some parents and children not be fulfilled and rewarding - and therefore not of value in this world. That is the attitude which has come out in your posts and I'm not surprised that those parenting disabled children have taken umbrage. I am fortunate to have three healthy children. Does that mean I am therefore more happy and fufilled than many of the mothers who have posted here? We all make choices and we all live with those choices. Nothing is as easy as it looks nor as impossible.

'There are as many individual ways of reacting to a child's needs as there are different children and different needs.'

And this 29 pages ago. Oh God, I'm such a monster aren't I. How uncaring I am

I personally have no problem with women having tests.it is a personal choice. but I would question eather those women are getting the information they need.
are they being told of the risks? are they being told the positive side of having a disabled child.
or dare I say it are they getting a biased account?
are they told that even if they have all the tests known to man they can still end up with a severly disabled baby, caused by negilence at the birth.

what I have a problem with is the fact that whilst the nhs/goverment are targetting DS, they never seem to look at one of the most preventibe disabilitys........cp caused by hospital staff cocking up at birth.
or is this just too expensive for them.

Fivecandles, what i have found baffling about this thread si that you do not seem to have ever wanted to answer the OP.

You did wade in with lots of generalisations about "people" you know who all wished that they had been able to test for and terminate their disabled babies (I think it then transpired there is one person you know in this position).

Despite lots of peole wanting to get the thread back to where it started, you have repeatedly come in and dragged up what you have wilfully misunderstood, and then droned on and on accusing many other people of saying things which have not been said.

You have not (it appears) been interested in anyone's own experience, as "it doesn't count" because is is "just one person's experience" (unless it is yours, and then it is fine to be counted)

it took you 2 days to even get close to answering the OP (your first attempt was "Incredibly personal so impossible to address really" - if you cannot address your own personal reasons, then why are you so keen on defending other people's reasons?) when, actually, what the Op wanted (imo) was personal experience, and then a discussion on why the ante-natal testing system was good/bad/indifferent and what midwives/consultants could do to make it better (if needed, and in my experience it is sorely needed).

Every time such personal experience (and i'm talking about ante-natal experience here, not the general day-to-day stuff that you keep dragging us back to) you have ignored it, and any further ensuing discussion, or dismissed it as "one person's experience".

when do these single experiences begin to add up for you?

why is it that it is ok for a doctor/midwife to sit and paint an entirely bleak picture of having a baby with down's syndrome (which, ime they do) without pointing out that it is not all doom and gloom. after all, that is just one person's opinion too.

Read my post above yours Northern from 34 pages ago which I've repeated often. You don't need to go looking for bad things that you 'think' I might mean. They're not there.

I know quite a few people with dc's who have proved that their dc's cp was caused by the hospital.
I just find it odd thet it never gets a mentio.

are you sure it was 34 pages not 35?