Why is it that people are so obsessed with testing for Downs syndrome, when there are so many other disabilities which cannot be tested for, that are far, far worse?

[wannaBe]

It baffles me.

When we fall pregnant we are offered tests, and scans, most, although not all of which relate to the detection of Downs Syndrome.

At 12 weeks we are offered a nuchal fold scan to determine the likelyhood of the baby having downs, and women over 35 are routinely offered anmio to detect whether the baby has downs.

92% of pregnancies where Downs is detected are terminated .

And yet there are lots of other disabilities, such as cerebral palsy, autism, other disabilities which cause learning difficulties, which cannot be detected in utero, but which can be much, much worse than downs.

So what is it about Downs that is so scary?

Or would people have far more stressful pregnancies if all disabilities could be tested for, and would they feel that they had to be sure their baby would be perfect?

fivecandles you have repeatedly said that we're misrepresenting our lives. You appear to think we're lying.

Sorry, but I'm happy.

I have never said that I find it threatening that people might not be happy caring for a child. But people equally are made unhappy by divorce, or lack of money, or by having children full stop. If someone who is getting divorced tells me they're happy then great. I don't start going on about how it's not possible and I couldn't possibly be happy if I got divorced.

'Do wonder if there's a little bit of projection going on. Perhaps you'd like to talk about how you're feeling?'

Nah, I prefer to internalise everything and wail in corners randomly over my fate as the mother of an SN child. WHY? WHY did I just abandon her in hospital.

Think of the money and sleep we could have gotten? Could have gone on holidays, even.

Although, DD1's keyworker suggested a good technique for when DD1 talks or acts out of turn. You literally do the 'talk to the hand' signal and say 'Freeze' calmy.

We've been having lots of fun with that one around here .

'fivecandles you have repeatedly said that we're misrepresenting our lives'

No, I haven't.

I've repeatedly said that I'm very glad that some of you are so happy and joyful and enriched.

But not everybody is or would be in your circumstances.

Can you see the difference?

Because I have been saying the same things for quite some time now but some people are still struggling to understand them.

By 2shoes on Wed 17-Sep-08 17:23:14
who are these families you talk about and know so much about? how do you know so much about them?

sorry did i miss 5candles answer.
been busy with rl

expat, might be nicking that freeze method and see if my non-responsive little darlings could be "shocked" into listening

And then you wonder why I find it odd that some people's concerns about and problems with a child with disability are so often trivialised and dismissed expat.

Ages back northernlurker said something really quite important I think. She said:

" I think we would all do ourselves a favour if we stopped idolising parenthood as a state that enhances ourselves. Parenthood is joyful - it is also tiring and painful but despite and indeed because of those things it is one of the ways in which we explore our potential as human beings. We choose what we choose but must not pretend that any of those choices are cost-free. I think society as a whole would be well served to stop looking for the 'free' option and get stuck in!"

Yes, you do the talk to the hand thing, Fairy and it's either 'Freeze' or 'Not your turn'.

DH and I have morphed it, however, into a technique called The Klaw. The hand is applied to the entire face whilst giggling 'Talk to the hand!'

I don't know what they're doing with the autistic boy in her class, though.

"I've repeatedly said that I'm very glad that some of you are so happy and joyful and enriched.

But not everybody is or would be in your circumstances."

And the relevance is?

You can say that about any situation.

DH has dyspraxia, too.

The whole house is a loony bin.

I reckon the only one kookier is Jimjams', which we'd love to visit one day - we'd also like to have her son over to ours and just SEE if he can actually get these fecking windows open because we can only open a few of them they're all stuck to hell .

lol expat....definetely gonna try that

Is Jimjams son very good at opening windows, then?

expat have you read your emails????

i need to go check them, 2shoes. haven't looked at them today.

'By 2shoes on Wed 17-Sep-08 17:23:14
who are these families you talk about and know so much about? how do you know so much about them?

sorry did i miss 5candles answer.
been busy with rl '

What did you want me to list everybody I know with disabilities who is not particularly cheerful about it starting with my father who has MS, my ex dp who had muscular dystrophy, my friend's daughter who has had a cornea transplant, my students past and present with hearing and visual impairments ...

Every one of these people had very real practical and some psychological difficulties. A few of them especially my father who suffers from depression ARE indeed fairly miserable for a lot of the time. I happen to think that dismissing and making light of the difficulties faced by some of the people I know and people like them is not desperately helpful to anyone really.

I've learnt a lot from this thread believe it or not , I wondered if I could ask some advice, I was going to yesterday but it didn't seem appropriate then.

I know a mum through nursery and we every week or so meet up by chance at the same playground & while her eldest dcs and mine play, we talk. Her 3rd dc (11m) is I think disabled but it's something that is never mentioned by either of us. It's firstly none of my business and secondly I assumed that if she wanted to she'd say something & guessed she rather liked the undemanding nature of our conversation from a casual acquaintance. I always say 'how are the children?' or such like.

But when dh said, "what's wrong with her son?" and I didn't know, I thought hold on, actually have I been unsupportive in not mentioning it and for her it's the elephant in the room in our conversation? Grateful for your pov.

'"I've repeatedly said that I'm very glad that some of you are so happy and joyful and enriched.

But not everybody is or would be in your circumstances."

And the relevance is?'

The relevance is that I was responding to your point where you said that I thought you were lying. I didn't and don't.

I've said quite a few times that you can't use your personal experience as a way of making conclusions about what OTHER people think, feel or should choose any more than I can. Don't understand why that's such a difficult concept.

So the fact that you have a happy life is lovely but is entirely irrelevant for someone else making her own decision about whether to go through with a pregnancy for example.

fivecandles
you brought them into the thread. i just can't imagine why.
I can't imagine that people just come up to you and confide that they wish their child was never born.
but it seems you will say anything to win an arguement, even your students. thank god you don't teach at dd's school

'I have never said that I find it threatening that people might not be happy caring for a child.'

Good because some people obviously do.

'But people equally are made unhappy by divorce, or lack of money, or by having children full stop. If someone who is getting divorced tells me they're happy then great. I don't start going on about how it's not possible and I couldn't possibly be happy if I got divorced. '

And neither do I. In fact, I've said that if you were considering a termination the last person you would probably want to talk to and who would want to be talked to is a mothe who had chosen to have a disabled child.

But that's not what's going on here. We're having a dicussion about different attitudes towards antenatal testing and having a disabled child and so I can express my own view about what I think I might do while respecting that other people might have other choices. Get it?

now you are just being silly, you talk about respect when you only listen to people who agree with you.

2shoes people don't 'just come up to me and confide they wish their child was never born.'

What a bizarre idea. I happen to be good friends with people who are disabled or have disabled children. We talk. It happens you know?

The person I particularly have in mind has a dd roughly my age. She gave birth before antenatal testing even existed and yes, has told me that she wished she had had that option. I have said this before earlier in the thread.

'it seems you will say anything to win an arguement, even your students. thank god you don't teach at dd's school'

I think that's really unpleasant and untrue. Don't know why you feel you have to stoop so low.

'now you are just being silly, you talk about respect when you only listen to people who agree with you.'

Yep, course that's true. Loads of evidence for me not listening on this thread

So one person has said she wished she'd had antenatal testing and you extrapolate from that.

But I'm not allowed to assume that other people with severely disabled children are happy. Despite talking to people with severely disabled children every day.

Oh I see.

"Yep, course that's true. Loads of evidence for me not listening on this thread "

Oh hoorah now we agree on something.