Tricky situation with Mum's housemate...........

[Earlybird]

My father died about 25 years ago, and a few years after that a (female/divorcee) friend of Mum's moved into the house as a roomate. 'Jan' never paid rent, though she did split household utility bills with Mum, and bought a new fridge when the old one broke. She was a great friend to Mum, and also a huge help/support during the past couple of years as Mum's health deteriorated with cancer. I don't know what we (or Mum) would have done without her.

Mum died 2 months ago, and 'Jan' has continued to live in the house rent free. We offered 'Jan' a very good price to buy the house, but she declined and has bought a house closer to her children. She will be moving to her new house by the end of April (money not an issue, as 'Jan' is financially comfortable).

All of us (Mum's children) talked and agreed that, if she was interested, we wanted 'Jan' to have some of the furniture in the house - either as a gift for her to use in her new home, or at a token price. We had not told Jan of our intentions.

My sister went to the house this weekend to talk to 'Jan' about her plans. My sister was astounded as 'Jan' walked around the house pointing out the furniture she intended to take to her new home (most of it was Mum's furniture that was in the house when 'Jan' moved in 20 years ago). We have not offered it to her yet, but clearly she believes she is 'entitled' to it. (Some of it is nice/normal stuff, and some is very nice stuff that would interest an antique dealer.) This has taken us completely by surprise.

WWYD?

Firstly, I'm sorry about your Mum.

Secondly, be straight and tell Jan that you are going to get everything valued that you think may form part of your Mum's estate - she is then happy to offer a fair price for anything valuable or take anything that isn't.

Are you sure there wasn't more to their relationship than just friends? She may feel that she was entitled to more if that was the case.

Sorry about your Mum, too.

I suppose that Jan and your Mum felt like family to each other, and that having lived in the house for nearly 25 years, Jan feels that the furniture is sort of hers.

Was there any mention in the will about furniture or possessions, or anything for Jan?

I would do as Wisteria suggests IF you feel that the value of the furniture is importnat to you. It may be that there are pieces that you would like for sentimental reasons? In which case talk to her about those.

But Jan is presumably very upset to have lost your Mum, and there may well be some upset at telling her the furniture is part of the estate and therefore not hers to take...how far do you intend your relationship with Jan to extend?

Blu and Wisteria - thanks for your thoughts and condolences.

I don't think there was ever more than a friendship between them. Mum had a sizable house to herself, and Jan (newly divorced) needed someplace to live. It was mutually beneficial, and offered the bonus of companionship. (They met in alcohol rehab, but that's a whole other story.....)

There was no mention of Jan in the will, though she was listed as partial beneficiary on one smallish savings account.

My sisters and I are not interested in most of the furniture as we've got fully furnished houses. Most of the furniture is nice/in good condition, but would probably not bring much if we were to sell it 'second-hand'. But it would be quite expensive for Jan to fully furnish her new house if she went and bought new.

I won't continue to be in touch with Jan, as we don't know each other well (I lived in another country until recently so was not around). But my sisters may want to stay in touch as they know her better.

Sister was surprised to see that several oriental rugs, silver chest etc had been gotten out of the loft and were on the floor in the spare room....

Tactfully mention that it will be valued for sale, but that if there is stuff she would like, to let you know now.

It does sound an awkward situation...but I think that the friendship and especially the support during your Mum's illness is beyond value.

I think perhaps at least 2 of you need to go and around and explain to "Jan" that the beneficiaries of the estate have decided to give her x y z however a b c will be sold at market value unless she wants to make a reasonable offer for them.

You're not having a very good time are you!

We want to be generous to Jan as she was a huge and important part of Mum's life.

However, by walking through the house pointing to what she wants/intends to take when she moves, there is no chance to be generous - she isn't exactly demanding stuff, but she's not exactly requesting it either. Also, there are a few things we want, and now Jan's 'claimed' them....well, it's just awkward with the potential for an unhappy exchange.

I think she's honest - would we be naive to ask her if there was a verbal understanding between her/Mum about the house contents?

Earlybird, I was about to ask if it was possible your Mum led her to belive she could have this stuff?

Could one of your sisters, as they knew her better, say something like " Mum never told us she'd said you could have these things, did the two of you discuss it? "

It is possible, I suppose that she thinks she'll be giving a good home to things that might otherwise end up in a skip, as you don't need them.

It does sound like she's being honest about things so far. At least she's telling you. When my Gran died things just seemed to disapear from the house, and that was amongst her children!

perhaps then say x would like this, y that etc for sentimental reasons, is that a problem? Perhaps that would raise the issue in a non confrontational way?

Blu - you're right that Jan's friendship and support during Mum's illness was invaluable. But, it's worth remembering that Mum had 20 healthy years, and for that time, Jan lived in the house rent-free (my sisters and I own the house), with the previously mentioned split of utilities (we paid for all repairs, taxes, insurance etc).

An added issue is that, even if we give most of the furniture to Jan, we want it to stay until the house sells. Every estate agent and property show says that a furnished house is more appealing to potential buyers. At this point, Jan seems to think that when she's ready to move, most of the furniture will go with her!

It's really turning into an awkward situation!

Anyone else?

So sorry to hear about your Mum.

I wouldn't necessarily ask her if there was any arrangement between her and your mum - your mum isn't around to contradict her if she simply lies and says yes. Surely your mum would have mentioned it if there were some kind of agreement?

I agree with CarGirl, just present her with "x would like that, y would like that, as you know you're not mentioned in Mum's will but is there anything in particular that you would like to remember her by?"

I'd do it sooner rather than later, though. If the silver chest is already out, it'd just be awful to discover that your great-grandmother's Regency soup tureen had already vanished by the time anyone plucked up the courage to be straight with Jan.

All of this is valuable food for thought.

I think we need to back up/regroup and
*ask Jan for a list of things that are 'hers' in the house
*Tell her that we must insist that anything of Mum's stays until the house is sold.
*Tell her we'd be happy to discuss which pieces of Mum's furniture she'd like to have
*Tell her we'll discuss among the heirs if we can accomodate her request.

I think more than anything, we've been caught off guard by her demands. While we don't want to fall out with her, we don't intend to be bullied.

EB that sounds like a good plan. Remember she was gifted in the will so surely your mum would have gifted her other things too so by that you can assume that your mum didn't have any agreement with Jan.

Hope it goes well and yes do it asap.

Hi EB - I am sorry about your mother, & particularly sorry that I seem to have missed recent posts by you. (I will try & do a catch-up!)

Have you, or your sisters, discussed this situation with the attorney who's dealing with the will? Because presumably there will be some sort of estate taxes to pay (hence a downright uncontrovertible reason for needing to get the effects valued) - and it will be easiest - I would guess - to open the discussion with Jan by just setting out the tax situation. Once she understands that her friend's heirs are going to have to pick up a tax tab on what she's thinking to get free, she may think again.

Alternatively - as a robust tactic - you & your sisters could claim that you had a verbal agreement with your mother to each pick a certain number of things (eg by taking turns/by lot) - that way as a group you & yours sisters can eliminate the most valuable things from what is available for Jan to take.

PS - I think you should discuss with attorney first, as you've been ambushed already & you want your ammunition in hand. Asking Jan for a list of what she wants will put you on the back foot - I think.

Hi Bink - glad to see your name, and have your sage advice. (currently planning a summer visit to London, so perhaps that could include time for a coffee?....or maybe I'll need a few stiff drinks by then...!)

Clever as it is, I don't think the estate tax idea will work as a strategy. Mum's estate is below the threshold where inerhitance tax is due (fairly sure that current threshold for inheritance tax liability here is $2M).

It is entirely possible that Jan had (or believes she had) a verbal agreement with Mum to take what she wanted from the house. None of us are aware of such a verbal agreement and are almost positive there is nothing in writing to support that viewpoint. So, really it will come down to a verbal tug-of-war. Shame really, as we want to be generous with Jan but her approach has raised hackles.

All of this is not helped by the fact that 'peacemaker' sister executor is conflict-averse. I'm trying to coach her in strategy (helped immensely by input from here...so thank you to all), but at the moment it appears she would prefer to hand everything over to Jan to avoid unhappiness, rather than stand her ground on principal.

inheritance - spelling

earlybird
sorry for your loss
i think these situations are very tricky to handle
distant family rode into town and scooped up all dh's aunties belongings like locusts
but family in a way is different

jan has lived rent free for many years and your family expense and would surely want you guys to receive best price for your house?
the furniture stays as is still sold
i think the rest should be done through executor
there doesnt have to be conflict
sit down with her and explain we want the stuff to stay here til sold and that there are some peices you are attached to, lets talk..was there an agreement, can you see our side? etc..

your offer of selling house at reasonable price was very nice too,

it is difficult in these times to sometimes to what will be best in the long term if sister does not want to confront her with your side of things..dont be bullied..

..jan, we need to talk..

Blimey EB....as if you didnt have enough going on atm!

I think Bink's idea of the choosing a piece of furniture each in lots is a great idea.

Am going to read the last post and then post again later.

Well - things have moved on. Jan (the housemate) has completed the purchase of her new house, and has taken possession. She has some decorating and other cosmetic work to do at her new place prior to moving in, so is still living at Mum's though she is currently out of town (for the next week).

Mum's house has been for sale for a week now. My sister (executor) was last at the house 4 days ago, and went over today to get Mum's house freshened up for a showing. She was astonished at what she found. All furniture is still there (including Jan's own furniture), and some paintings/pictures remain on the walls - but the rest of the house has been largely cleaned out.

The bulk of Mum's wedding china has gone, the crystal goblets/decanters, all kitchen cooking utensils (including some nice new stuff I gave Mum for Christmas), all pots/pans/baking tins, microwave (not built in), all books, all garden tools, etc. Even Mum's golf clubs and cookery books are gone....Jan has not taken some inherited family silver pieces, and fine display china, but most everything else is gone. She has virtually cleaned out Mum's house to furnish her own.

Many of these items we might have willingly given if asked....but Jan has not asked, she has taken. We are placed in the position of not being able to choose which of our Mother's things we might like for value, or for sentiment.

We are stunned, and don't know what to do. Help me think this through....what is our next step?

Oh goodness Earlybird, I'm so sorry.

Do you have a lawyer? I think it might be a good idea to get some legal advice.

I would get straight to a lawyer and ask advice. It would appear that she has taken advantage of your generosity and sister executor's reluctance to be assertive about this.

Is there a lawyer helping with the will - cause she has effectively stolen from your mother's estate? There must be some recourse for you through that. Unless it is willed to her - then at this stage she has no right to take it.

I would call the police, I really would.

I would contact her asap by telephone if you can and if not a letter to get to her as soon as she gets back and set out that you are all very disappointed to find that she has taken so much and that you would like it all returned as soon as possible so that you can sort through it all in accordance with the will. I would say that if everything is not returned you will have no choice but to contact a solicitor.

Such a shame that it's come to this, but it's outrageous behaviour isn't it?

Complicating factors:

1. I'm the sister with 'backbone' but I'm not executor, and am 4 hours drive away.

1. We do like Jan (sisters know her much better than I do), and even though she benefitted tremendously from the arrangement over the years, feel we 'owe' her a debt of gratitude for her dedication to Mum through the illness.

1. The majority of the things she has taken are things we probably would have given her anyway - had she asked. The fact that she's simply 'taken' has got everyone's back up - but how much are we really going to argue over pots/pans, garden tools, etc.

1. No one is sure exactly what is gone, because there was no household inventory done. It's hard to remember to ask for a certain few books or ornament etc when those things are simply gone (similar to whether you can really reconstruct everything that was in a lost suitcase for insurance purposes). Otoh, there is no reason she would/should have taken Dad's military school ceremonial sword (for instance)...but, it's gone.

1. Jan is grieving (as we all are), but is also a long term alcoholic (as Mum was), so through grief and alcohol brain damage is probably incapable of rational thought (add in an alcoholic's emotional dysfunction on top for good measure).

1. No one knows anything about conversations between Jan and Mum about the house contents - so no idea what Mum may have promised Jan - and there is nothing written down.

1. Many of the things we wanted to keep were of sentimental value - my sister wanted certain Christmas ornaments, I wanted Mum's recipe box, etc - but those things are no longer in the house. Jan 'lived' with some of those things as long/longer than we did and clearly feels emotionally entitled to them....

Now there is little chance for discussion/negotiation - other than getting 'heavy' via a lawyer, or going to Jan's house and rifling through boxes that came from the house. Other complicating factor: Jan's 3 sons probably helped her move, and wonder if it is possible that they now have some of the household contents.

I don't think Jan is 'bad', just think she's made astonishing assumptions and in a misguided way probably thinks she's 'helped' us clear the house, and/or that we children (who have fully furnished houses) wouldn't 'need' or want most of what was there.

Rambling now....it's just a big mess.