why should you be gettinganything back from the government in the first place?

[pukkapatch]

comment i read on another thread. why should we be entitle to somethig physical back from 'them'
the government only provide us with healthcare, and free education, a safety net to ensure we dont starve if we make terrible financial decisions, roads and pavements, a legal system, police, fire, .... the lisst goes on.
so why do somepeople still feel they are not getting enough? perhaps they should go live in parts of the planet where all this would seem like complete paradise? because places like that are more abundant than places where the gvoernment does all this for you.

well if one doesn't pay taxes one is not entitled. But when a large portion of your income goes on tax, and you are struggling to keep afloat, and then the government privatises rail which makes costs soar and services decline, and doesn't spend enough to make education and health care as good as it should be, I think one has a reason to complain. No good saying 'give us your money, and then you can't complain if we spend it in a way that we want that doesn't take your needs into account, now go away.' IMO.

Or in some cases people have paid into the Uk system for years and years and are no longer entitled to any benefits as they live abroad . The grass is always greener on the other side of the wall I think.

well yes, when you put it like that, i totally agree. complaining is the way to go.
but i am talking about the large number of people i have had the unfortunate circumstances of meeting, in rl and teh web, who think they are entitled to everything from the government because the government 'owes them' . what for, even they dont have a clue.

Pukka - I think your comment in in relation to my post.

I am certainly not one of those people who believe that the government owes them anything. In fact I get very wound up by the "hard done bys" .

What I said was that CB it is the only thing I physically get from the government. I work FT, pay taxes, own my own house, pay for my son's education, pay stupid amounts of money to commute to work...
And in the same way as I like it when I get something for free at the supermarket, it is nice to get something back.

I most certainly am entitled to something from the government ...

...But then I work for them, so it is my salary

Interesting points btw, both pukka and ruty.

presumably you get health care? Or do you use the private system for everything? ie use a private GP, private prescriptions for you and all your children etc

Was that to me Samantha?

Yes I do use NHS (as does everyone else), but also do things privately.

I was taking issue with Pukka referring to my post when I never actually said I was owed anything.

i think in a true democracy people should have a say in how their taxes are spent. If we'd spent the money that we have spent on updating our nuclear arsenal and killing Iraqis on education and health care our schools and hospitals would be transformed.

SUppose people think road maintenance isn't an issue? Or schools--because they don't have children?

It would never work. It could never be administered.

I'd like to see a trial run.

Well, the idea is that you do do that, by voting in people who you think will spend taxes as you see fit.

If everyone had a say on how every penny is spent can you imagine the bureaucratic nightmare?

yeah but they lie.

There has to be more of a democratic process though. For example, the majority of the UK were against UK going to war with Iraq, but Blair did it because he personally wanted to, he didn't listen to his public. this is not a democratic process, especially when he is spending our hard earned money.

I guess that fundamentally people are either of the socialist mindset, or the christmas club mindset.

the people of the former believe you pay taxes, and and these get distributed according to need. this may mean you, if you are in need.

the latter believe that the taxation system should be like a christmas club - I've put in, so I should get something back, regardless of need.

people don't tend to change views very often IME.

ps - what is the proper phrase for the christmas club system. have degree in politics so am that a more sophisticated term is eluding me.

True, but in the long term it is not in their interest to lie as they will then get voted out. Agree it's not great in the short term though.

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Also, if you give people a choice about where their taxes are spent, everyone wants to pay for schools and hospitals. No one wants to pay for the tax inspectors who collect all the money or the audit office who make sure it's spent correctly. Everyone says "yes, let's have more nurses and teachers" but no one wants to say "we really need some more administrators to manage their training, pay, schedules etc".

Everyone can bang on about "bureaucracy" because it sounds bad but actually, without people organising the whole damn thing, there'd be a bunch of teachers standing in a field, wondering where their school is. You need planning inspectors, building regs inspectors, people to support the local councillors who agree that the school should be built on that site, health and safety people, people to liase with central govt to get the right funding, accountants to manage the money, and so on and so on. No one wants to pay for that lot though. They only want to pay for teachers and nurses.

To be honest, the level of understanding about how government spending works is absolutely woeful (cue all the ridiculous post budget moaning about 4p on beer when the bigger picture is that billions of pounds have to be found each year somehow)

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Well I think its like an investment - You pay in contributions ( ok generalising here everybody has different circumstances)and in return you get something back. I have paid in a considerable amount and I am entitled to nothing back. If I do not pay contributions for my pension then I will loose that as well.SO all the money that I have paid in goes to everybody else. I get nothing back and no benefit from it. Might as well have played the lottery or just given the money to charity !
Ok they have to draw the line somewhere and I lost ..Nothing I can do about it !

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There's no either or in this is there?

There's an amount (forget what it is) at which what you put back equals what yyou receive- either side of that things vary, and the amount obviously alters if you have extra needs- eg disability, caring reponsibilities (although carers allowance is a laugh in itself).

Ultimately I see it as a safety net- I had no idea DLA would be relevant to us through all those years when DH and I were paying and not getting; Dad worked all his life and never claimed a penny- but thanks God he had the chance as his pension went Kaput and without the safety net they'd be homeless and starving when he finally gives in and retires this Autumn. It's an insurance plan for all those things we don't think about- sanitation, roads, NHS- and having been one of the unlucky ones who has had to over-utilise some of these services (2 of my children are disabled) it's only then that you relaise why you did pay all those years without complaining.

Oh we do get some element of choice about where taxes are spent- at election time. Isn't that half the point of an election?

I moved abroad over 20 yrs ago really just about from working age onwards and during the 20 yrs working I paid into the Uk system and was NOT using it ........so no I do not think that it is fair . I can vote for the Uk government, my dd is british . I agree I should not be 'maintained' whilst not living in the UK however I have effectively paid for something I have never used..Unless you count me using the roads , services etc when I am in the Uk on holiday ! As I said they made a law and I lost nothing I can do about it !

[yeah but Peachy no one tells the truth about taxes at election time. ]

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