Middle-class kids do OK in poor performing state schools - Really?

[mumofhelen]

The headlines say middle-class kids do OK in poorly performing state schools. This surprises me. We have two state comprehensive schools nearby, and no child from any social background has managed to get into a "Russel Group" university, let alone Cambridge, Oxford or Imperial College.

Call my cynical but it sounds like a case of what we desire most earnestly, we believe most easily.

Does anyone know where I can read the report more in-depth than the headlines?

but that's kind of the whole point about qualifications, fio... they really exist solely as a mechanism for employers. we could all learn stuff from books, but the framework is important for everyone who isn't independantly wealthy to 'prove' credentials. many of the great scientific discoveries of the 17th and 18th century were made by 'unqualified' toffs who studied because they wanted to, it's the rest of us who need to have qualifications.

did i just mis-spell independently? i believe i did...

I know that parents hav the key responsibilty to try to instill a respect/value for education but surely if a teahcer is faced with someone who doesn't want to learn, surely it is also encumbent on them to make a differnt (I appreciate that is easier said than done).

I will never forget my welsh teacher who said on my school report once when I was about 14.

MArk 76. Kewcumber really needs to try harder she is capable of so much more.

My mum thought it was a really odd comment but it excited me - she was the first person to spot that despite getting consitent lowish A's that I was actually coasting. (And yes the school still thought teh local Poly would do just fine!)

I loved her for it and still think of her very fondly despite teh fact that she was on the surface an absolute cow!

I think that post was implying I was a genious - errr no but the point was the school didn't care whether I was or not provided they could state that x% of pupils went on to tertiary education they really didn;t care what it was.

I had no idea what a Russell group uni was until i've just googled and it turns out I went to one. I went to a state school although it was single sex.

Fio, i'm one of those really thick clever people you're on about. Whilst I was studying at (my Russell group!) uni I once told dp that I didn't know what the fuss was about solar power being more environmentally friendly because it will just make the sun run out.

IIRC the report said that mc kids who were deliberately sent to their local poor-performing school by their parents to foster social inclusion (as opposed to just wound up there for some other reason) did well academically (but that, annoyingly for the parents, they didn't achieve much social inclusion because they tended to hang together in middle-class cliques within the school).

My dad was the first from his family to go to university -- because he was the youngest and the compensation from the accident that killed his father meant that the family could afford for him to stay on to do A-levels and then go on to a degree. His older brothers, who were just as bright, didn't have the option because they needed to be out working and bringin money in.

genius

Your Welsh teacher sounds fab, Kewcumber.

The sink school I went to was the one that the guy who wrote 'Kes' had taught in. HE wanted to make a difference - and presumably did when he was there - but had buggered off to be a writer long before my time.

I can see why teachers become jaundiced, of course, and it must be a struggle to teach badly behaved kids esp. in an environment where putting your hand up to answer a question marks you out for bullying.

As it happens, we moved house pretty quickly (were only there because our house sale was held up and my mother needed to start her new job). And the next school, which had a great reputation and was in a 'good' area was even worse - clearly coasting on its old reputation while covering up what was actually going on. I remember one poor newly qualified teacher - kids in her class were basically rioting, throwing chairs across the room. NONE of the other teachers or the head did anything about it.

I was very lucky to escape to a selective independent school once my mother found out. But a lot of damage had been done.

I was looking for a copy of the report itself really. I think my best bet is to contact the University of West England directly.

I have no doubt that those who are truly brilliant will get on whatever their background. However, truly brilliant people, by definition, are a minority - they represent the tail end of the bell-shape curve in statistics. What happens to the 'average' child regardless of background? It doesn't mention those in the news report, hence my interest to read the report in full.

Around here where I live and to the best of my knowledge, all classes are somewhat peeved off with our secondary state schools. A lot of parents I know, again regardless of class or ability to pay, move out of the area when their oldest reach 9 years old, just to avoid the schools.

can download the report
here

its quite interesting but not sure that it proves the conclusions stated in the press release. They find that the children of lentil weaving lefties seem to do okay in poor performing schools. But would they do even better in "better schools" ? Much of the report is focused on other aspects such as why the parents chose to send their children to these schools in the first place

what a lovely little mumsnet thread about poor girls do well.
i think aitch had a point re: structure of exams.

its nice that you are pc about these things but those kids who are poor and not academically able dont fit into that catagory of poor person done well. i suspect they have apprenticeships.

but bless the govt for introducing "diplomas" for the 'non academically able'.

was that to me, ham, about being pc? i don't understand.

no aitch.

i was agreeing with you re structure.

i do that sometimes...agree with you.

no, i just didn't understand, it was because you mentioned my name and then 'you'. not worth sighing over.
and yes, fio, i do get what you mean as well, but it's not the way of the world alas. has anyone seen that programme Make My CHild brilliant on Five? it's much less wanky than it sounds, and really points up the mincing machine aspects of the current education system. she identifies kids that are doing okay-ish at school and plays to their strengths educationally, suddenly they achieve more than they ever thought they could.

"just because you are a dr doesnt mean you are better than a hairdresser or vice versa"

but my point wasn;t whether it is better to be a doctor than a hairdresser but that if you have the ability and desire then you should be a bleedin' doctor regardless of where you went to school or how affluent or not your parents are.

Not everyone is academic even bright people are not always academic. My sister was a nurse, she is bright, it suits her well, she was very good at it. No problmes really apart from the fact that she nearly didn;t get to do it becasue (having been to the same crap school I did) she flunked her O levels and got packed off to secretarial college because thats what they did with virtually every girl who failed thier O levels in our day. She was miserable as a secretary and ended up gopin back to night scholl to resit her O levels. Would have been a damn sight easier if the school had been a bit more engaged with her before that point.

My point which I obviously made badly was that if we want children to be happy and fulfilled they should be encourage to achieve their potential whatever it is

id ont think anyone could rgue with you kew - and i think yesterdays "secretarial college" is todays "hairdressing diploma"

your absolutley right

aitch - stop it!

I think hairdressing was equally popular then and was the alternative... but one look at my sisters perm would have convinced them that secretarial college was best!

my brother is exceptionally bright and generally sneers at anyone less bright than him (in his eyes), he doesn't work, is very depressed, has no money, is mortaged and second mortgaged up to the hilt.

I think shovelling shit would be very good for him.

Though thats rather off the point

I think it is true that bright kids will do "okay" in any school. However, as with all children, they may not, quite likely not too infact, reach their true potential in a poor school. Have seen this happen in practise.

actually although I did OK in the end - I don't doubt I would have done thigns differently at a better school. I secretly really really wanted to go to Oxford but didn;t have the bottle to put my hand up in assembly when they asked if anyone wanted to. I would have been slaughtered I may well have been out of my depth though - difficult to know.

Personally I think a half-decent hairdresser puts a lot more joy and happiness into a greater number of people's lives than a lot of other occupations.