Does anyone else think boys get a hard time??

[SoupDragon]

Following on from the daggers at school thread, I'm quietly fuming that boys get such a hard time about their toys and how they play.

Yes, I do believe that, as a sweeping generalisation, "boys will be boys" and play with toy weapons and keep play fighting etc just as girls will be girls and play at princesses, fairies and with dolls. There are exceptions like the boy who plays with My Little Pony and the girl (like me) who preferred Action Man to Syndy. No one keeps trying to stop girls playing girly games and tell them to stop being so girly do they? Why should boys always come up for a lot of stick for wanting to play boys games?

Does playing with baby dolls mean a girl is more likely to become pregnant as a teenager? I bet you could prove it to be statistically true - after all, the teenage pregnancy rate has increased as has the sale of realistic baby dolls. Should we stop our daughters playing with them?

I'm not saying that boys should be allowed to take weapons into school but only because home toys shouldn't be taken into school/nursery. Girls shouldn't take their toys in either.

"'boys will be boys' mentality is a very dangerous one as it is often used by over-indulgent mothers of sons to excuse any kind of unacceptable behaviour in their boys,from bullying to vandalism to rape" ??!! Oh please!

Sorry soupy, but what exactly do you mean?

i think there are certain expectations with boys but that doesn't have to written in stone. my ds1 didn't know what a sword was until a few months ago whereas many children are exposed or even encouraged to watch boys films - i know of 4 year olds that have seen all the lord of the ring films. my ds1 is limited to watching swalllows and amazons and chitty chitty bang bang (cruel i know!) if i exposed him to anything more i would worry he wouldn't yet know the difference about fantasy and reality and it would also raise the issue of war today and i still haven't come up with an answer for that one.

Have you honestly met a woman who excused her son's rape? I'm glad to say that has never happened to me, or vandelism or bullying for that matter. And I teach in a secondary school. It is far more common that parents refuse to accept that their child has misbahaved, rather they blame the school for 'picking on them'. And that is true for the parents of both girls and boys.

Tabitha, I had mixed toys for both of mine. No nasty steriotyping in my household, I was a 70s feminist, quite sure that we were all equal and it was houw you raised them that makes the difference. With my n of two, I can tell you that there are differences that are born into them. They were even different in the womb. But hey, you don't know me,my parenting methods or my kids so you must know better.

Yes hmb, sadly I have. I used to be a Policewoman and met women who refused to accept that their precious boys could do any wrong, and that includes grown men who had been accused of rape. It was always 'the woman's' fault in their eyes. And yes, I heard plenty of women say 'boys will be boys' or something simmilar when their son's when their sons were 'up to no good'. Fair enough, I can accept that many boys can be 'boisterous' (and so can girls, believe it or not, if they're allowed to) but limits can and should be set.

And no, hmb, I don't know you but you don't know me either so why do you feel the need to add a smarmy comment?

I think the phrase 'boys will be boys' is commonly used in two very different contexts. As well as desribing natural childhood exhuberence it is also used to describe adult bad behaviur. Nitpicking, I know, but IMO it's a phrase easy to misunderstand.

Girls will be girls, however, IMO is a phrase rarely used to describe bad adult behaviour.

I think thers a vast difference betweeen unacceptable behaviour in a 5 year old and the behaviour of a rapist and find that link offensive because it sexualises little boys. People bang on enough about how wrong it is to sexualise girls. Isn't this type of thinking just the same?

The coomet was made because you seem to be saying that those of us with 'lively' boys have them because we condone all types of behaviour. Ultimetly we will even condon rape. Which is insulting non-sense.

Because you have a quiet soul, and you raised him they way you have you feel this proves your case.

I raised mine the same way to each other. I have a quiet girl and a noisy boy. To a degree you get what you are given. I teach my children how to behave, I have very high standards. But in doing this I have to accept that they are different ( in the same way I have to use different approaches in school with boys and girls, my standards are the same but my menthods are very different).

Sorry but your comments have just read to me as offensive and a little smug.

Boys will be boys does not equal rape being acceptable! To suggest that anyone saying that on here would think that is just slightly offensive.

Neither of my sons has ever played with swords (as I said before ds1 doesn't play- he;s spent the last hour looking at a lampshade- we're taking him our to run around soon). DS2 loves playing with trains. He does crash them, he also talks to them and he does talk about monsters. His play comes from within him, and if he wanted to play with toy swords, sticks, hoover hoses turned into guns, light sabres or whayever I would have no problem with it- as long as no-one was actually getting bullied (verbally- which girls are better at- or physically- which is more boy territory- I wouldn't care).

I have no problems with girls at all- ds2 can whinge for Britain- I do have a problem with smug mothers- but I have a problem whether they're smug mother's of girls, boys or mixes.

Good point whoever mentioned the cuddling etc- it probably is a sensory physical need in boys. Both of mine will kind of wrap themselves around me and climb under my tshirt (great at 8 months pregnant). A lot of people (with both) have told me boys are more cuddly and stay cuddlier for longer.

does that bullying comment make sense- sure you know what I mean- bracket went in the wrong place! I would care if someone was being bullied- whichever method was used.

Sorry if I came across as smut - I genuinely didn't intend to, nor was I intending to 'sexualise little boys' when I said that some women will condone their sons commiting rape.
All I am trying to say is that I think that 'some women' tend to be more accepting of son's 'bad behaviour' thinking that horseplay and violence is acceptable and natural just because they are boys and 'that's what all boys do' - they don't.
And finally, my son isn't quiet - he can be a holy terror at times (he just doesn't like swords or guns) but then so can my youngest daughter.
Anyway, got to go now, I'm going away for a few days, so am a bit 'demob happy'

That should of couse read 'smug'

Tabitha, my comment was expressing complete disbelief. So, you may be/have been a police officer and heard mothers say "Oh boys will be boys" and smile indulgently when little Fred is up on a rape/vandalism charge but your comment was that 'boys will be boys' was often used by over-indulgent mothers of sons to excuse any kind of unacceptable behaviour in their boys,from bullying to vandalism to rape. Which is, quite frankly, rubbish. You may have heard it on a couple of occasions but that hardly counts as often does it?

Anyway, you seem to have missed the point of my thread which was that boys get a hard time because they're not allowed to play how they want to in a "boyish" manner. Girls don't get jumped on for pretending to be mothers with babies in case it leds them to become pregnant at an early age, they don't get Barbie taken away in case they grow up wanting breast implants and turn anorexic so they look just like her. I don't think I've ever seen a thread on mumsnet saying "I saw a girl take her baby doll into school and I think it's inappropriate" but there are lots of them complaining about boys and their toys. That's what I meant about boys getting a hard time. Boys with toy weapons aren't going to turn into machine gun wielding Arnold Schwartzeneggers.

Teach your sons the boundarys involve in rough and weapons related play and teach your daughters that Barbie's figure isn't real, that a wand is a weapon in the wrong hands and a real baby is a whole lot different to Baby Annabel. And then let them get on with playing how they want to.

I agree the average boy is different from the average girl. The inequality comes when each tries stepping into the realms of the others traditional bounds. If you are a girl then you are a tom-boy and that is fine. If you are a boy everyone gets more up-tight about it. I think the same is true in adult life, women can basically do what they like and dress how they like, but men still have bounds beyond which they can't acceptably go, although these are gradually diminishing.

So, given that society will shun an adult male cross dresser, is it so unexpected that we discourage our sons to dress up as ballerinas?

I had a noisy DD, a noisy DS & 2 very quiet DSs. My youngest DS is a drama queen, writes like a girl (neatly!) and is very interested in things like fabrics and colour. Relatives say things like "Ooh, you need to watch him!" because it isn't acceptable for a normal teenage boy to be like this (so therefore he must be gay). Yet they saw nothing wrong with my DD playing football & doing karate, because as a girl it is OK for her to do what she wants.

I do think boys have a hard time, and I also think it is other parents that put these stereotypes onto our children.

The other thing no-one has mentioned is the effect on boys of our "don't-need-men" society. You watch a film & it's all about some strong woman who doesn't need a man in her life- where does that leave our sons? What is their role in life? My DH gets quite bitter & twisted over this, every time some new programme portrays every family as minus the original dad. (& yes I know that a lot of fathers do disappear etc etc, but when every family on TV is portrayed as mum & kids only it just keeps reinforcing the message that men don't have a purpose)

I haven't heard any mother excuse a rape by her son with "boys will be boys" but I've heard similar comments used to excuse a lot of other behaviour that I find unacceptable. And rape victims used to - may still do for all I know - have a hard time in court because they were accused of leading the man on.

What is acceptable for a boy - its apparently "normal" for them to fight each other? Why? If we go back to hunters and gatherers they had to co-operate to hunt. Why should a boy have to fight to be acceptable? Both my children like swords and boys and arrows - in my view that doesn't make either or them unnatural. However if there is a lot of violent play in my house I'd distract them to something else. I don't see boys and girls as having to have different roles unless society forces them into it.

Girls are expected to behave themselves more than boys which means that girls are given a harder time than boys IME. And in the adult world it is a fact that women tend to receive harsher and longer sentences for the same crimes as men. So no I don't agree with the premise of this thread.

I don't think girls are expected to behave themselves more than boys at all. Boys are expected to quash their desire for rough play and can be disapproved of for playing "like boys" for want of a better phrase.

I was talking purely about young children, not a men/women debate. I agree that opportunites etc in the adult world are greater for men than women.

Well said, Cam...picking up on Barbaloot's point about men being disadvantaged in adult life (excuse me but whaaaaat???? - don't mean to be rude Barb but I nearly fell off my chair when I read that)I was just about to make that same point with regard to the penal system and sentencing of women (now there's inequality for you ...of women that is). Then of course there is just that little issue of women being paid substantially less than men.

Also Tabitha, I think your comments were rather literally interpreted rather than taken in the spirit that they were intended - bad luck mate. Have a good break (wherever you are off to)

Overall, I agree to a point that boys can be unfairly berated for playing with toy weapons, being noisy and boisterous etc which is a bit unfair...but I don't think its all plain sailing being a little girl either.

Must admit after catching up on this thread today my head hurts so I'm off to find a more lightweight subject.

Might try the 4x4 thread - now that's not likely to be contentious is it....

I wonder if it's a british thing? Having spent a lot of time in mainland Europe, I hear a lot more often comments like 'that's normal, CHILDREN (not boys) need to be children - there seems much less focus on gender & much more tolerance of kids just being kids. I have not seen anyone flinch at the little boy in the park with his bow & arrow, not at the little boy next to him with his pushchair... In fatc, tolerance is too apathetic, more active than that. i've apologised in the past for my boys being a bit ... erm ...lively & I've felt almost chastised - but they're children, theyy need to run around, it's normal etc etc

As the mother of the wild noisy boys, I have had many negative comments about the fact they're all boys "never mind / don't you mind? / oh well, as lonmg as they're healthy etc" to my knowledge, this does not happen to mothers with girls. (this always from british or american mums, never french/ german/ ..)

i think boys behaving loudly in the streets does cause people to feel wary and on guard & boys sence this fear & hostility (talking about more teens now). I think it's a shame that boys inevitably feel alienated & possibly play up to this as a defensive reaction. (not true fore all teen boys - my cousin is unbelievably quiet, intelligent amazing well mannered, gorgeous. My other cousin Is loud & loutish, both gentle, nice young men but I'm sure perceived on the streets in very different ways) Still I have very high standards for my boys, hate this 'boys will be boys' attitude. sorry rambling now. In general I do think boys have a hard time for the reason soupy mentions, but I do think it's more of a british thing, ime

I remember going to see the nurse practitioner after ds2 was born to pick up my ad's, as I suffered from pnd.
She asked how many children I had & I told her that I had 2 little boys, to which she replied "Oh, boys are hard arn't they!"
It was like she was trying to blame my depression on the fact my children were male!
I answered by saying "No, my little boy is quite a good boy actually & the baby is just a normal baby"
I later found out that she was the mother of 3 girls, who was desperate 2 have a son!

by the way, i hate replying to such moronic & offensive comments, but tabitha, your comments about rape are just so outrageous.

"The 'boys will be boys' mentality is a very dangerous one as it is often used by over-indulgent mothers of sons to excuse any kind of unacceptable behaviour in their boys,from bullying to vandalism to rape. "

This thread was asking whether boys (young children) get a hard time, and you drag up such a disturbing crime, and then proceed to suggest that mothers of sons will somehow defend such an action.
can you account how these 'over-indulgent' mothers often defend unacceptable behaviour? Anyway, ime, overindulgent mothers who blindly defend their child's wrong-doing are blinkered & irrational & do so irrespective of their offspring's gender.

Maybe we should start a thread - are mothers of sons given a hard time?

Are mothers of sons different to mothers of daughters?

Also, ime, 'boys will be boys' is only used by other people speaking disapprovingly of other boys' behaviour, rather than mothers defending their son's behaviour.

I really find your comments distastful & deliberately inflamatory & frankly there's too much of this nonsence about. Why should you turn an interesting discussion into an ignorant slanging match?