UK and USA - compare and contrast

[KateandtheGirls]

Turquoise and I were talking a little bit about this earlier this week and we thought it would be interesting to start a thread.

Now I know there are many problems in the USA, and I'm still feeling quite sickened by the way the majority of people in this country voted the other day. But in a lot of ways things are so much more pleasant and civilised here.

For example:

*Halloween. Trick or Treating is a fun activity for the kids. No-one's house gets vandalised if they don't have treats.

*Bonfire Night/July 4 (i.e. the night when there are fireworks). Again, this is done in a fun, civilised manner. There certainly aren't gangs of teenagers roaming around letting off fireworks at all times of the night.

*Houses/cars being broken into. Happens a lot more often in the UK. In fact a lot of people here don't even lock their cars, and some people don't lock their house doors when they're out. There's a level of trust here that you don't get in the UK.

Thoughts? Comments?

Well I suspect it depends exactly where in the US you live, Kate...

The words gun control spring to mind.

I remeber sepnding a July 4th in New york and loads of people were letting firecrackers off in the street in the day and night. Frightened the life out of me.

There are loads more gated communties in the US so there isn't trust everywhere surely?

You obviously live in a nice area. When we were in teh states we got lost in NY in our rental car. To say I was scared is an understatment.

I agree Jan, definite disadvantage of the US is the number of guns around. (Although gun crime is increasing in the UK isn't it?)

I also realise I'm lucky enough to live in a "nice" area. But when I was staying with my Dad in England in a very upscale area, he still insisited I lock my car doors even if I was just going inside for a couple of minutes. And I'm sure all the stories we've heard here on MN over the past couple of weeks about Halloween and Bonfore Night weren't just in inner cities.

We had a guy (who'd been hassling us in the lift for money) try to block our car. The same night some guys got in front of our car at lights and I just told dh to rev up and run through them and thank God they moved. These things happened in Buffalo NY which is probably rougher than where you live KATG.
To be fair the town in which I live is getting bad and we get lots more murders now than years ago. We had two in one week recently. And lots of people get mugged or just beaten up for fun I won't even begin to talk about burgulary etc....

burglary*

You're right KATG we have kids letting fireworks off in our street regularly of late and we live in a town.

Damn - I wasn't going to get sucked in to Mumsnet this morning, the house is just too messY! But can't resist this. Here's a quick cut and paste of something that I added to the election thread yesterday (and promptly killed it!)

That's such an interesting point about the Puritan spirit being entrenched since the Pilgrim Fathers, I had never thought of that. Kate and I were discussing how lovely it is that the yob culture of Britain is simply not tolerated here, but is that simply one of the few plusses of "family values"? Is it possible to have the family 0riented strong sense of community that I appreciate about the US, without the focus being on the church and right wing values (which I don't!)
Just by the by (and not America bashing, honestly, but OMG ): my brother is a parish priest in Northern Vermont, and it was his 10th anniversary of ordination this week. His parishioners clubbed together to get him a present, and bought him....................

a gun!

Back to this thread - maybe America is just ghettoised, I feel a million times safer in my little suburb than I ever did in my village in England, however the time I got lost in downtown Newark I had to run a red light because a gang surrounded the car when I stopped.

That's my point - I love the safety aspect and the family feeling, but I hate the fact that it's very clubby and cliquey. I'm thinking this over constantly at the moment, as we're having to decide whether to come home in the spring or not.

Another pro is that children do seem to be allowed a childhood for longer here. There are far less of the little sexy, sparkly, off the shoulder numbers for 6 year olds around.

Maybe I do have a rose colored view of life here. And I never had a "Bonfore of the Vanities" moment! I've walked around Newark by myself (to get to both actuarial exams and to the Immigration office), and driven there in the dark by myslef, and never felt threatened. Maybe I'm lucky.

But it seems to me that Americans in general are just more trusting and less cynical. And maybe as Turq says it's to do with the Puritan spirit and the right wing moral values.

OK, I'll do my best to be objective. As far as guns, I can name perhaps a dozen people that I know who have been shot (some survived to tell the tale, others didn't), either related to crime or in accidents at home. That's in a 'nice' suburb of Dallas. I don't worry about that in England. My car may be broken into but chances are I won't be killed. Feeling safer is one of my favourite things about living in England.

I also think the English way of life is at a much more gentle pace. Now when I visit the States I find it a bit overwhelming. People talk faster, walk faster, TV programs move at a faster pace and always seem louder, the shops are open later so rather than going home to relax people shop after work, the news is more depressing and everything is so dramatic and extreme one moment and forgotten the next. It feels like an assault to the senses.

That said, one of the things I've been concerned about recently is education in the UK (see other thread about private schools). When I was growing up we loved school, it was fun and really encouraged learning. All the kids I've talked to in England seem to hate it which I find quite sad. School is such a long, defining part of life. I can't stand the thought of DS not enjoying it at least to some degree.

I also miss American friendliness. When I went to the grocery store with my Mom earlier this year the cashier said 'You must be the daughter that lives in England! How's that little boy of yours? He sure is a cutie.' This was just a cashier at the grocery store but she had had a conversation with Mom at some point (and Mom had obviously gotten out her photos) and the lady remembered and was genuinely interested. I love that.

I also like the fact that just about everywhere is non-smoking in the States now. It makes it so much nicer to go out with DS and not come home smelling of cigarette smoke like we do in England because the 'non-smoking' section happens to be right next to the smoking section.

what about those little girl beauty pageants?

I would say american are less cynical though

Tex - got to agree on the news. Michael Moore's point on the 'climate of fear'.
Also agree about the education - my kids love school here, it's incredibly good quality, and it's FREE! But again, might be absolutely appalling in a less priveliged enclave.

Turquoise, that's interesting that you think children can be children for longer in the US. I have just the opposite view! You're right about the mini-prostitute clothes though. I'm often shocked by what some seven year old girls, and younger, are allowed to wear in England.

To me it seems that American kids develop a kind of precociousness (sp?, is that even a word?) at a very young age. The children's programs are more sophisticated and the commercial targeting of children in the US is unbelievable. It's a problem we've come across when we're home because DS is two and still likes Thomas the Tank Engine, Bob the Builder, etc while the kids of children around the same age have progressed to things like Yu Gi Oh. One of the American boys who is only three actually called DS 'a girl and a sissy'! I was shocked that such a young child even understood such a concept. I can't imagine that happening with any of my British friends.

I agree that Americans are more optimistic and less cynical, which can be refreshing. I do have a problem with that when it goes as far as naivety and lack of critical thinking, which is something I see all the time when I'm home. It's as if people just accept what they're told to be true without questioning it further and making a conscious decision for themselves. That drives me crazy.

(I'm in the UK) I think the main aspect of American life which concerns me is the gun culture.

In England, we have VERY few POLICE who are even armed. Last week our (few) armed Police went on strike (over a recent court case where an armed policeman shot a suspect and was deemed guilty of unlawful killing) and those that had weapons returned them during the period of the strike. Apparently there was not ONE armed police person on duty in London. I think that actually says something very GOOD about the UK!

(I'm in the UK): I think the British 'cynicism' is really more about our culture, which is one of dissent. This is reflected in our press - we have a very wide newspaper spectrum covering all side of the political debate. I understand that American media is mainly right-wing. We are always questioning authority and providing our own 'opposition' to the ruling party.

I think this is something about the UK of which I am really proud. It's fed our 'protest' culture and means our politicians are constantly questioned and constantly have to justify themselves. A bit of cynicism can be A Good Thing.

I should add the the constant English cynicism I encounter can drive me crazy too. I'm just waiting for the MN thread titled 'Christmas, am I the only one who hates it'.

Morningpaper, I agree with you. In the bigger picture English cynicism is stimulating and something that I really appreciate.

Something else that used to bother me in the States is that I felt constantly judged and if I was trying to be defined and labelled. I think that's the cliquey thing that Turquoise mentioned. It's important to belong to a group and stay in it. I find that so ironic in the Land of the Free.

Of course, there are classifications in English life (and I say English rather than British because I've only lived in England and imagine Scotland, Wales, NI, to be different) but they're mainly to do quite literally with 'class'. Perhaps by being foreign I opt out of the class system and therefore don't feel the same pressures as a native? I do find that the English love their eccentrics though and embrace, if not downright encourage, them. Love that.

That should be 'as if I was being defined...'

tex111, re: calling your DS "a girl and a sissy". It's a big difference between American and British men - the average American man is much more self-consciously butch. They're not allowed to openly take an interest in girly things like food or clothing. They've got to care about sports. If they don't follow the rules, they're girly-men or sissies.

I know the UK has that sort of attitude, too, but it's much less common, in my experience.

NQC, you're so right. You can imagine what it's like in Texas.

tex111: too scary an idea for me!

I'm not even American, I'm Canadian, living in the UK. And I'm very happy to be away from the whole macho attitude. (And before moving here, I was in Montreal for years, where the men are a lot less butch.)

I lived in Boston for a year in the 1980s. I liked a lot of things about the US, including people's energy and can-do attitude, their friendliness and the acceptance, at least among the people I knew, of the benefits of living in a multi-cultural society. I decided that I wouldn't want to live there permanently, not least because of the politics (this was the Reagan era), but I left with a lot of respect for Americans.